How to argue this point?

[Arkwright]

Thanks Fidel... Arguing this by proxy is very lazy of me. I'm going in for the kill.

[Bad Wolf]

Hi guys

I'm new here and was prompted to join to try and improve my counter arguments to some of the claims I see made by those who believe in the existence of God/Gods.

Specifically I would like to know how people would respond to the following which has just been put to me by a long time friend.

I responded to a facebook post he made regarding the recent discovery in the Vatican claiming someone had found a document outlining amongst other things a miracle performed by Jesus on a stillborn child. I think I have countered this particular claim well enough but my friend has come back to me with a personal account of how he had a persistent debilitating back problem for over 11 years and one day whilst talking to his pastor about it, his pastor said he would pray for him there and then. My friend then claims his back problem was cured instantly and that he even felt a hand enter his body and manipulate his back.

Now I have no desire to call my friend a liar because he clearly believes something happened that day, but I do feel the need to respond to counter his belief that it was a miracle of some sort.

Can anyone suggest how I respond to him?

Thank you in advance.

Ask your friend how he knows what it feels like to have a hand enter his body.

[Arkwright]

I'll ask, but not hopeful he'll reply...

[pocaracas]

Just this morning, I heard on the radio that some 30% of the world's population suffers from chronic pain. It's a horizontal 30% across the whole world, so it's also 30% in the US.... why doesn't this preacher pray for everyone with similar problems?
There's a proper gift to be shared with the masses.
But does he do it?
NO!
He saves it for the few.... oh heck... he doesn't... your friend is lying. He never had any back problem for 11 years, or else he would never have taken a course in... what was it?... Personal Trainer. PFFFF That's the mark of the con!

FFS, why do people feel the need to con others over something so trivial as a belief in some non-existing entity?

What is the thought process that goes from "I believe in X", to "I must make up a story (or use one that's been told to me) in order to get others to believe in the same X"?

EDIT: mark of the con #2 - change the subject away from the initial miraculous cure... WTF?! That was a first hand experience right there, ripe for the taking and showing EVERYONE how it works.... but he just gave up and went for the origin of the Universe strawman... -.-'

[Tonus]

Thanks Fidel... Arguing this by proxy is very lazy of me. I'm going in for the kill.

Don't look at it as an argument that you need to win or a point you need to defeat. Simply approach the discussion rationally and think your replies through. Don't look beyond whatever point it is he's making. For example, when he presents a miraculous story (the one about his back) ask for verification. If the only verification is his word, explain that it's insufficient for you to accept. He may simply write you off as unwilling to believe, which would be the truth; you have no reason to accept his claim without evidence.

And that's it. The important thing is to discuss, listen, and learn. There are few arguments that end with a winner based on a clear and irrefutable explanation or presentation of fact. Don't "go in for the kill"; if he manages to deflect your approach or even turn it around on you, will you be sitting next to him at his next church service?

[Whateverist]

Personally I'd take up a more interesting hobby than arguing with your friend over his religious beliefs. He's an adult right? Why not agree to disagree and just get on with living your lives? Are you so convinced that the only road to a happy and meaningful life requires believing what you happen to believe? If not, let it go.

[vorlon13]

The friend with the back problem cure is presupposing his pastor is affiliated with the One True Faith.

Many, many people of different faiths have made similar (or better) claims of cures. Obviously, there is only One True Faith, so we have either many people LYING or deceived by SATAN.

[Whateverist]

Ark-wright? Maker of an ark .. who you looking to save? You remind me of the guy who asks the shrink for advice regarding his 'friend'. I can't imagine an atheist bothering to write the actual scripture a friend had quoted. So tell me, when did you decide you hated god?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

For the Vatican document ask them for sources and the date of the text. Anything after 37 means ahit all as we what contemporary, you know like what we have for people like Vespasian.
As for friend with the back issues, ask him why the pastor even had to pray in the first place. After all god is all knowing, was he just gonna let your friend suffer till someone prayed?

The Christian health care plan is found in James 5:13-15. It consists of the elders praying over the sick person and anointing him with special oil in the name of the Lord.

The magic pool at Bethesda closed down because the angel who operated it had limited hours and he eventually retired. None of the other angels were interested in taking over the job.

Jesus used to do a lot of faith healing for all kinds of ailments. But he recommended that people go to a good doctor when they got sick. It's unclear if he ever cured the wounds from his crucifixion.