Alcoholics Anonymous and Drug Addiction

[Aractus]

BW, they don't give a success rate - they don't even collect data so it would be impossible for them to do so.

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@smithers - the issue is that the 12-step program is not critically evaluated for improvement. If it was, it'd be expected to achieve better success than it presently does.

Telling all alcoholics that they have a "disease" in my view is not right. As noted by Dorian there might be underlying psychological issues and those are best dealt with directly with a qualified therapist or physician.

[Lao Shizi]

Just a few points:
The American Medical association classifies alcoholism/addiction as a disease. A chronic, progressive, and fatal disease.
Before AA, there were few options for addicts. Jail. Sanitarium. Death.
AA clearly states that you should "take what you need, and leave the rest."
I don't attend meetings very often anymore, but without the support of the people in AA/NA, I would not be here now.

[AceBoogie]

@smithers - the issue is that the 12-step program is not critically evaluated for improvement. If it was, it'd be expected to achieve better success than it presently does.

Telling all alcoholics that they have a "disease" in my view is not right. As noted by Dorian there might be underlying psychological issues and those are best dealt with directly with a qualified therapist or physician.

I do not disagree with that. I am simply saying that atheist or theist, many people HAVE found some merit in AA. It seems to have some merit to me. With that being said I agree that it is a deeply flawed program. Really the only parts of AA I agree with are the 'fellowship,' aka building a support group, and helping other addicts, doing the right thing, etc. Having people who share the same problem with you to talk about that problem is therapeutic and doing the right thing or helping other people will make you feel better about yourself which may possibly keep you from wanting to destroy yourself further.

Other than that I feel confident making the generalization that mostly everything else they claim is complete bullshit.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm trying to find a way to living my life without drink. It's a difficult road. I don't do group stuff very well, and where I live (way out in the sticks) there's really no support groups happening.

I've been clean about four weeks of the last five.

It's hard.

[vorlon13]

Passages Malibu is not 12 step oriented and runs only $90,000 a month. Betty Ford Center is 1/3 that.

[Aractus]

I do not disagree with that. I am simply saying that atheist or theist, many people HAVE found some merit in AA. It seems to have some merit to me. With that being said I agree that it is a deeply flawed program. Really the only parts of AA I agree with are the 'fellowship,' aka building a support group, and helping other addicts, doing the right thing, etc. Having people who share the same problem with you to talk about that problem is therapeutic and doing the right thing or helping other people will make you feel better about yourself which may possibly keep you from wanting to destroy yourself further.

Other than that I feel confident making the generalization that mostly everything else they claim is complete bullshit.

I think what you're saying is that there is some aspects to the 12-step program that some AA members find helpful in staying sober. This is obviously true or there wouldn't be anyone who'd say AA worked for them.

But as I said before, it's approach as a "disease" rather than an "addiction" can well be called into question.

Also group therapy is not always the best. Did you know that anorexics for instance usually face group-based intervention programs; but some researchers are finding that individual in-home (i.e. not institutional) therapy is more effective in treating the disorder. And it is a recognised disease.

[Chas]

I do not disagree with that. I am simply saying that atheist or theist, many people HAVE found some merit in AA. It seems to have some merit to me. With that being said I agree that it is a deeply flawed program. Really the only parts of AA I agree with are the 'fellowship,' aka building a support group, and helping other addicts, doing the right thing, etc. Having people who share the same problem with you to talk about that problem is therapeutic and doing the right thing or helping other people will make you feel better about yourself which may possibly keep you from wanting to destroy yourself further.

Other than that I feel confident making the generalization that mostly everything else they claim is complete bullshit.

I think what you're saying is that there is some aspects to the 12-step program that some AA members find helpful in staying sober. This is obviously true or there wouldn't be anyone who'd say AA worked for them.

But as I said before, it's approach as a "disease" rather than an "addiction" can well be called into question.

Also group therapy is not always the best. Did you know that anorexics for instance usually face group-based intervention programs; but some researchers are finding that individual in-home (i.e. not institutional) therapy is more effective in treating the disorder. And it is a recognised disease.

You can question it, but the AMA calls it a disease.

Alcoholism or alcohol dependence is defined by the American Medical Association (AMA) as "a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations."

[Lao Shizi]

[quote='smithers' pid='780336' dateline='1414071969']I do not disagree with that. I am simply saying that atheist or theist, many people HAVE found some merit in AA. It seems to have some merit to me. With that being said I agree that it is a deeply flawed program. Really the only parts of AA I agree with are the 'fellowship,' aka building a support group, and helping other addicts, doing the right thing, etc. Having people who share the same problem with you to talk about that problem is therapeutic and doing the right thing or helping other people will make you feel better about yourself which may possibly keep you from wanting to destroy yourself further.

Other than that I feel confident making the generalization that mostly everything else they claim is complete bullshit.

I think what you're saying is that there is some aspects to the 12-step program that some AA members find helpful in staying sober. This is obviously true or there wouldn't be anyone who'd say AA worked for them.

But as I said before, it's approach as a "disease" rather than an "addiction" can well be called into question.

Also group therapy is not always the best. Did you know that anorexics for instance usually face group-based intervention programs; but some researchers are finding that individual in-home (i.e. not institutional) therapy is more effective in treating the disorder. And it is a recognised disease.
[/quote


The American Society of Addiction Medicine and the American Medical Association both maintain extensive policy regarding alcoholism. The American Psychiatric Association recognizes the existence of "alcoholism" as the equivalent of alcohol dependence. The American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the American College of Physicians classify "alcoholism" as a disease.
In the US, the National Institutes of Health has a specific institute, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), concerned with the support and conduct of biomedical and behavioral research on the causes, consequences, treatment, and prevention of alcoholism and alcohol-related problems. It funds approximately 90 percent of all such research in the United States. The official NIAAA position is that "alcoholism is a disease. The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems. Like many other diseases, alcoholism is chronic, meaning that it lasts a person's lifetime; it usually follows a predictable course; and it has symptoms. The risk for developing alcoholism is influenced both by a person's genes and by his or her lifestyle

[Dorian Gray]

[AceBoogie]

I do not disagree with that. I am simply saying that atheist or theist, many people HAVE found some merit in AA. It seems to have some merit to me. With that being said I agree that it is a deeply flawed program. Really the only parts of AA I agree with are the 'fellowship,' aka building a support group, and helping other addicts, doing the right thing, etc. Having people who share the same problem with you to talk about that problem is therapeutic and doing the right thing or helping other people will make you feel better about yourself which may possibly keep you from wanting to destroy yourself further.

Other than that I feel confident making the generalization that mostly everything else they claim is complete bullshit.

I think what you're saying is that there is some aspects to the 12-step program that some AA members find helpful in staying sober. This is obviously true or there wouldn't be anyone who'd say AA worked for them.

But as I said before, it's approach as a "disease" rather than an "addiction" can well be called into question.

Also group therapy is not always the best. Did you know that anorexics for instance usually face group-based intervention programs; but some researchers are finding that individual in-home (i.e. not institutional) therapy is more effective in treating the disorder. And it is a recognised disease.

Yes AA obviously does work for some people. I don't think there's any disagreement there not sure what you're getting at.

And I'm not sure where I stand on the disease thing. Is being a bad driver a disease simply because you have learned certain behaviors and that certain 'symptoms' can be found in all those that drive poorly? I don't know about that.

I suppose whether or not group therapy is effective for someone is up to that individual. Everyone is different.

And Dorian I see where you're coming from and I suppose it is all dependent upon what is important to the individual. If someone finds a group therapy/meeting type setting for them to be cathartic or therapeutic they have that available in AA. I know some atheists, as I've said, that have made AA work for them with absolutely no issue. But I suppose that also depends on the individual.

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AA clearly states that you should "take what you need, and leave the rest."

AA also clearly states that you need to turn yourself over entirely to their simple program, which doesn't quite match up with 'take what you need and leave the rest.'

There are many more contradictory ideas in AA and in the Big Book and it's a little silly how obvious that is to everyone except people in AA. Like I said it obviously serves some purpose because there is SOMETHING working for some people that are able to stay sober using AA, but I would argue that having a support group and helping other people more than anything, is what helps people stay sober, regardless of the steps.