Torture..

[lifesagift]

So you have the guy who has you daughter..... she's in a shed somewhere, hooked up to a bomb... it's going off in 2 hours....
You want the guy to tell you where..

But no torture?

Torture does not work and besides we are civilised. I can't believe in the twenty first Century someone is advocating torture.....you must be American.

No, read the thread, I'm asking the question, not advocating anything... plus I'm from the UK!

---

So what if you had the guy who's gang were pointing a nuke a Washington or London?

At 10pm the nuke is launched unless you release all Xbrand crims held in the US, plus add $10billion to an account in Xrabia!

All you need from this guy is a 10 digit alphanumeric code to tap in, and wrong entries are fine...

Do you do good cop bad cop, or pull his finger nails off, or kill his children in order to save hundreds of thousands of lives?

[Heywood]

That being said, if we're forced to choose between torture and collateral damage, I would have to say the former is less unethical and should be employed if, and only if, there is substantive reason to believe that when done the possibility of the latter will be removed.

The amount of torture needs to be measured or balanced. It would be morally wrong to torture Lois Lerner by waterboarding....but not wrong to torture her with imprisonment.

[vorlon13]

The amount of torture needs to be measured or balanced. It would be morally wrong to torture Lois Lerner by waterboarding....but not wrong to torture her with imprisonment.

How about letting Lois decide ??

Waterboarding till she spills the beans, or 6 months at Oswald State Penitentiary.

[Thumpalumpacus]

So you have the guy who has you daughter..... she's in a shed somewhere, hooked up to a bomb... it's going off in 2 hours....
You want the guy to tell you where..

But no torture?

Torture does not work and besides we are civilised. I can't believe in the twenty first Century someone is advocating torture.....you must be American.

If you think only Americans advocate torture, you must be a naif.

[Mudhammam]

The amount of torture needs to be measured or balanced. It would be morally wrong to torture Lois Lerner by waterboarding....but not wrong to torture her with imprisonment.

But I don't accept that imprisonment is torture, and though you're probably only joking, I think the horror that torture entails needs to be taken particularly seriously if we're ever going to excuse its use in the most unfortunate of circumstances.

[Aractus]

What do people think about torture...?

Waterboarding.. is horrible...

And then there's the position that you might get, not the truth, but the words you want to hear !!

But for me, if you have the guy who has planted bomb, can you find out where the bomb is? What if your captive has your daughter locked up in a box.. is torture right to find out where she is?

God I hate when uneducated people ask that question.

I'll just post the first part of the treaty, which you've obviously never read :

• CONVENTION' AGAINST TORTURE AND OTHER CRUEL, INHUMAN OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT
  
  The States Parties to this Convention,
  
  Considering that, in accordance with the principles proclaimed in the Charter of the United Nations, recognition of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,
  
  Recognizing that those rights derive from the inherent dignity of the human person,
  
  Considering the obligation of States under the Charter, in particular Article 55, to promote universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms,
  
  Having regard to article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights2 and article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,3 both of which provide that no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,
  
  Having regard also to the Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1975,4
  
  Desiring to make more effective the struggle against torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment throughout the world,
  
  Have agreed as follows:
  
  PART I
  
  Article 1. 1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
  
  2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
  
  Article 2. 1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
  
  2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
  
  3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
  
  Article 3. 1. No State Party shall expel, return (refouler) or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
  
  2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.
  
  Article 4. 1. Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
  
  2. Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.
  
  Article 5. 1. Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences referred to in article 4 in the following cases:
  
  (a) When the offences are committed in any territory under its jurisdiction or on board a ship or aircraft registered in that State;
  (b) When the alleged offender is a national of that State;
  (c) When the victim is a national of that State if that State considers it appropriate.
  
  2. Each State Party shall likewise take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over such offences in cases where the alleged offender is present in any territory under its jurisdiction and it does not extradite him pursuant to article 8 to any of the States mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article.
  
  3. This Convention does not exclude any criminal jurisdiction exercised in accordance with internal law.
  
  Article 6 1. Upon being satisfied, after an examination of information available to it, that the circumstances so warrant, any State Party in whose territory a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is present shall take him into custody or take other legal measures to ensure his presence. The custody and other legal measures shall be as provided in the law of that State but may be continued only for such time as is necessary to enable any criminal or extradition proceedings to be instituted.
  
  2. Such State shall immediately make a preliminary inquiry into the facts.
  
  3. Any person in custody pursuant to paragraph I of this article shall be assisted in communicating immediately with the nearest appropriate representative of the State of which he is a national, or, if he is a stateless person, with the representative of the
  State where he usually resides.
  
  4. When a State, pursuant to this article, has taken a person into custody, it shall immediately notify the States referred to in article 5, paragraph 1, of the fact that such person is in custody and of the circumstances which warrant his detention. The State which makes the preliminary inquiry contemplated in paragraph 2 of this article shall promptly report its findings to the said States and shall indicate whether it intends to exercise jurisdiction.
  
  Article 7 1. The State Party in the territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.
  
  2. These authorities shall take their decision in the same manner as in the case of any ordinary offence of a serious nature under the law of that State. In the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 2, the standards of evidence required foi prosecution and conviction shall in no way be less stringent than those which apply in the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 1.
  
  3. Any person regarding whom proceedings are brought in connection with any of the offences referred to in article 4 shall be guaranteed fair treatment at all stages of the proceedings
  
  Article 8. 1. The offences referred to in article 4 shall be deemed to be included as extraditable offences in any extradition treaty existing between States Parties. States Parties undertake to include such offences as extraditable offences in every extradition treaty to be concluded between them.
  
  2. If a State Party which makes extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty receives a request for extradition from another State Party with which it has no extradition treaty, it may consider this Convention as the legal basis for extradition in respect of such offences. Extradition shall be subject to the other conditions provided by the law of the requested State.
  
  3. States Parties which do not make extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty shall recognize such offences as extraditable offences between themselves subject to the conditions provided by the law of the requested State.
  
  4. Such offences shall be treated, for the purpose of extradition between States Parties, as if they had been committed not only in the place in which they occurred but also in the territories of the States required to establish their jurisdiction in accordance with article 5, paragraph 1.
  
  Article 9. 1. States Parties shall afford one another the greatest measure of assistance in connection with criminal proceedings brought in respect of any of the offences referred to in article 4, including the supply of all evidence at their disposal necessary for the proceedings.
  
  2. States Parties shall carry out their obligations under paragraph 1 of this article in conformity with any treaties on mutual judicial assistance that may exist between them.
  
  Article 10. 1. Each State Party shall ensure that education and information regarding the prohibition against torture are fully included in the training of law enforcement personnel, civil or military, medical personnel, public officials and other persons who may be involved in the custody, interrogation or treatment of any individual subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment.
  
  2. Each State Party shall include this prohibition in the rules or instructions issued in regard to the duties and functions of any such persons.
  
  Article 11. Each State Party shall keep under systematic review interrogation rules, instructions, methods and practices as well as arrangements for the custody and treatment of persons subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment in any territory under its jurisdiction, with a view to preventing any cases of torture.
  
  Article 12. Each State Party shall ensure that its competent authorities proceed to a prompt and impartial investigation, wherever there is reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committed in any territory under its jurisdiction.
  
  Article 13. Each State Party shall ensure that any individual who alleges he has been subjected to torture in any territory under its jurisdiction has the right to complain to, and to have his case promptly and impartially examined by, its competent authorities. Steps shall be taken to ensure that the complainant and witnesses are protected against all ill-treatment or intimidation as a consequence of his complaint or any evidence given.
  
  Article 14. 1. Each State Party shall ensure in its legal system that the victim of an act of torture obtains redress and has an enforceable right to fair and adequate compensation, including the means for as full rehabilitation as possible. In the event
  of the death of the victim as a result of an act of torture, his dependants shall be entitled to compensation.
  
  2. Nothing in this article shall affect any right of the victim or other persons to compensation which may exist under national law.
  
  Article 15. Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.
  
  Article 16 1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture of references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
  
  2. The provisions of this Convention are without prejudice to the provisions of any other international instrument or national law which prohibits cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment or which relates to extradition or expulsion.

  (My emphasis)

Water-boarding isn't "horrible" - it's torture, it's completely illegal and everyone involved in it all the way from the CIA drones to Dick Cheney and the USA president are guilty of the offence and, according to the convention, must be held accountable.

[bennyboy]

Should we risk the deaths of many innocents to protect the rights of a few suspected villains?

The answer is yes. The society is worth protecting because it protects the rights of all and gives them due process. It is dangerous to be uncompromisingly good. And it is the willingness to accept that danger which makes a society great, and the unwillingness to accept it which makes a society cowardly. America has gone, in my opinion, from a nation of noble greats (willing to die for liberty, in particular the liberty of others) to a nation of cowards (willing to torture or kill possible innocents to ensure their own safety).

I would imagine that the soldiers who died during WWII are rolling in their graves at the idea of having sacrificed so much for a nation whose people have become so unworthy that they can even carry on a serious debate about whether it's okay to torture other human beings.

[Aractus]

I'll sum up the UN treaty:

1. Torture means an act causing pain or suffering (whether physical or mental) that is intended to extract information or a confession, punish, intimidation, coercion or discrimination of any kind.

2. All acts of torture AND attempted torture are illegal.

3. No justification of any kind can be given for acts or attempted acts of torture.

4. All persons involved in acts or attempted acts of torture must be duly prosecuted in a criminal court.

[Heywood]

I'll sum up the UN treaty:

1. Torture means an act causing pain or suffering (whether physical or mental) that is intended to extract information or a confession, punish, intimidation, coercion or discrimination of any kind.

2. All acts of torture AND attempted torture are illegal.

3. No justification of any kind can be given for acts or attempted acts of torture.

4. All persons involved in acts or attempted acts of torture must be duly prosecuted in a criminal court.

Imprisonment causes mental suffering for the purpose of punishing those imprisoned. It meets the UN definition of torture.

So why aren't there UN resolutions condemning putting criminals in prison?

The answer is deep down inside, everyone is a little okay subjecting someone else to physical or mental suffering.....as long as its not too much.....as long as its not too much punishment for the crime. How much mental anguish did the Japanese war criminals experience while they waited for their execution? How much suffering did they experience during the act of execution? The guys who got waterboarded had it easier in my opinion.

[KUSA]

The most immediate problem with torture is the favor will be reciprocated.

If we are talking about Muslim terrorists then they already have us beat. What's worse than getting your head cut off with a knife?