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Atheism = Desperation
#71
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 5:26 am)AtlasS Wrote: Then how was it created ? believe me I heard many people tell about this random thing, if your answer is "we don't know yet", then it's the same religious answer i have for many other things.

Via a cascading series of physical consequences scaffolded up by the environment immediately previous to each change, and the laws of physics in general. Asserting randomness misses the boat by ignoring the fact that physics and the previous states the universe was in doesn't allow for anything to happen. It is, in fact, within a set of values; in other words, not random.

Unguided is not the same as completely off the wall bonkers random. You would accept this in every other context beyond this one stupid, thoughtless strawman. Dodgy
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

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#72
RE: Atheism = Desperation
"But when I think about a difference between "Islam" & "Atheism", "

Atheists don't cut peoples' heads off in an attempt to control them and seize lots of land from anyone we can conquer/slaughter?

As to the rest: atheism is the default position. A child not taught the god concept will not come up with the god concept on its own, so long as it has access to science and education.
Dying to live, living to die.
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#73
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 6:35 am)robvalue Wrote: No, I was saying there is good evidence computer software was made by humans because we have experience of it being made by humans, and no examples of it occuring without humans.

Whether or not there are "other universes" has no bearing on what created them, if anything. The size and complexity of something is not an indication of design. Design can only be contrasted with non-design.

Who designed god? And who designed god's designer? It's just moving the question.

So all you are now saying is that you assume god exists. Atheists just ask for evidence. Sure, if that is the case, then there is no more discussion to be had. As far as I'm concerned, untestable unfalsifiable claims are worthless.

If you want to be scientific, you assume as little as possible. You assume that what you experience is in some way real, that you can learn something about the reality, and that there are certain rules of logic. After that, you only base conclusions on evidence, observation and reasoning.

Not everyone wants to be scientific though, and that's up to them.

I understand your point.

But I think we both already agree that an instance of a design MUST work within the context of the design. And to each instance its scope.

In other words : our human brains can only think of things as being created, because we work in the context of a creation (i.e the universe).
God is above the design of the universe according to my understanding.

Being in a different scope, it's totally possible that he wasn't created nor designed himself ; we only understand things this way because the scope we're at dictates our heads to work this way. That's why in Islamic philosophy, once we enter "the design of the afterlife", we will finally see what god is.

miniboes


What mainly makes me believe in the Quran, is the comparison between the theory and what came in the book itself. That's the main reason that makes me choose it as a faith.

Well, science alone didn't provide the evidence ; though the steps -or the conditions- that were around during the time of the big bang especially the nothingness or the void, then the collision, along with the existence of chemicals in that void ; are all mentioned in the Quran : LITERALLY.

One thing that makes me wonder : if one fact slipped by accidentally, why would the others be present too ?

Here's the stuff from the Quran..you compare and tell me :

( 30 ) Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

The joint entity refers to the elements during collision, yet the separation refers to the "bang".

( 11 ) Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."

The smoke refers to the existence of chemicals in the void called "heavens". Smoke is no more than elements in a gas state.

The thing is, I cannot ignore that 1400 years ago, somebody said this.

The expansion of the universe is also mentioned :

( 47 ) And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. page 522

That's why I mainly believe the Quran did provide an evidence of god..
I would sure try to get the book ; I didn't hear of the writer before.

What do you think ? it's the first time I ever discuss these verses..

downbeatplumb

I consider the Quran to be a valid evidence.

Bad Wolf

I mainly speak about my own approach here.
The goal & the blueprint.

If there's a certain goal to be achieved & a blueprint that enforces constant behavior/response if some conditions are triggered, then it's a design for me.

A building design is a design for example,because it has a goal of allowing people to live safely inside, it enforces a constant behavior of "protecting the residents" from the outer atmosphere one a person goes from the door -it enforced that behavior/service via the usage of concrete to cover up the surroundings of the resident.

robvalue

and here's where I always say : the Quran did provide something unique for the reader.
to me at least ; it makes me wonder.

Stimbo

That's why they call it "faith".
Though, still the chronological speech given by god in the quran raise up lots of questions..

LostLocke

A random universe would never & impossible too to come into existence.
That would be my answer.

FifthElement

I enjoyed that video a lot Big Grin
Actually I thought it was complex enough ! what if I asked a human for example, to control each & every bit along that descent ? and keep a record of it ? god does that..

The rest of the guys who commented : i will comment back but I need some time
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#74
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 3, 2014 at 7:51 am)AtlasS Wrote: ( 11 ) Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."

The smoke refers to the existence of chemicals in the void called "heavens". Smoke is no more than elements in a gas state.

The thing is, I cannot ignore that 1400 years ago, somebody said this.

The expansion of the universe is also mentioned :

( 47 ) And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. page 522

Here's the problem with what you're doing; you start with a claim (Allah is real/the Quran is right) and interpret what the Quran says in a way that makes your claim possible. How did you determine that all your interpretations are actually what the writers of the Quran meant? The verses are simply too vague to draw conclusions like you're doing.
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#75
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 1, 2014 at 5:12 am)AtlasS Wrote: Hello. How are you guys ?

The concept of observing (which gave birth to the scientific method) is simply about spending time checking the surroundings of a person deeply. Especially the events which take place away from human intervention.

Observing opened up the gates to admit & conclude by every scientist in the world, that our universe is ruled & governed by an invisible law which is not viewable outside the written form of a mathematical equation or a chemical formula.

But when I think about a difference between "Islam" & "Atheism", I usually see the biggest difference since both branches of faith have scientists & smart people, which is "desperation".

Atheists are desperate from the idea of a merciful beautiful god, who actually gave this universe a law after creating it.
Just like a band of cavemen who found an archeological monument, instead of admitting that somebody built it, the cavemen just said "it's randomly built !! nature built it".

While a Muslim scientist is not desperate at all. There is an entity which made all of this, the signs are there, and an entity that created all of this cannot be lesser than the one & only "god". Allah in Arabic.

Desperation is very bad. It's not just bad, it's evil actually to see the universe, and just plainly and simply say "this is randomly created".

It defies science. It's a desperate act of utter desperation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTySpF1U4rQ

If you want desperation, you should listen to some of the apologetics spouted by theists when they're asked to explain the contradictory details of their faith. For example, care to explain why Allah has chosen to leave the middle east as a war torn hell hole, even though the region is pretty adamantly Muslim. Don't you think he'd want to reward his followers or set them up as an example to the rest of the world?
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"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
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#76
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 3, 2014 at 7:51 am)AtlasS Wrote: I mainly speak about my own approach here.
The goal & the blueprint.

If there's a certain goal to be achieved & a blueprint that enforces constant behavior/response if some conditions are triggered, then it's a design for me.

I asked how we recognize design, not a design.

(November 3, 2014 at 7:51 am)AtlasS Wrote: A building design is a design for example,because it has a goal of allowing people to live safely inside, it enforces a constant behavior of "protecting the residents" from the outer atmosphere one a person goes from the door -it enforced that behavior/service via the usage of concrete to cover up the surroundings of the resident.

Okay..... how would you tell that a statue of George Washington was designed?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain

'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House

“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom

"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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#77
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 1, 2014 at 5:12 am)AtlasS Wrote: Hello. How are you guys ?

The concept of observing (which gave birth to the scientific method) is simply about spending time checking the surroundings of a person deeply. Especially the events which take place away from human intervention.

Observing opened up the gates to admit & conclude by every scientist in the world, that our universe is ruled & governed by an invisible law which is not viewable outside the written form of a mathematical equation or a chemical formula.

But when I think about a difference between "Islam" & "Atheism", I usually see the biggest difference since both branches of faith have scientists & smart people, which is "desperation".

Atheists are desperate from the idea of a merciful beautiful god, who actually gave this universe a law after creating it.
Just like a band of cavemen who found an archeological monument, instead of admitting that somebody built it, the cavemen just said "it's randomly built !! nature built it".

While a Muslim scientist is not desperate at all. There is an entity which made all of this, the signs are there, and an entity that created all of this cannot be lesser than the one & only "god". Allah in Arabic.

Desperation is very bad. It's not just bad, it's evil actually to see the universe, and just plainly and simply say "this is randomly created".

It defies science. It's a desperate act of utter desperation.


That word you're looking for, it's spelled 'disparate'.

MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci

"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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#78
RE: Atheism = Desperation
Um, there were no chemicals involved in the Big Bang, Atlas, nor was it anything to do with any collision. So if your kerrang mentions any of these things in that context, it's flat out factually wrong.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#79
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 1, 2014 at 5:12 am)AtlasS Wrote: Hello. How are you guys ?
Doing good.
Quote:Atheists are desperate from the idea of a merciful beautiful god, who actually gave this universe a law after creating it.
Just like a band of cavemen who found an archeological monument, instead of admitting that somebody built it, the cavemen just said "it's randomly built !! nature built it".
Good point, indeed. Theists, like the cavemen with the monument, are unable to recognize that gods are man made.
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#80
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 2:06 pm)Beccs Wrote: A child not taught the god concept will not come up with the god concept on its own, so long as it has access to science and education.
Really? Is that I scientific fact or just your own speculation?
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