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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 11:22 am
(November 4, 2014 at 11:14 am)TreeSapNest Wrote: (November 4, 2014 at 11:09 am)Chas Wrote: Believing something for which there is no evidence, even indirect evidence, is irrational. Your turn.
Am I irrational if I believe my neighbor when he tells me he saw a mouse in his basement?
You have indirect evidence. You know that mice actually exist, that your neighbor has a basement, that your neighbor isn't a liar. It is rational to believe his claim.
If your neighbor tells you he saw a dragon in his basement, you would require evidence of the existence of dragons before considering his claim. Simply believing him would be irrational.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 11:38 am
(November 4, 2014 at 11:22 am)Chas Wrote: You have indirect evidence. You know that mice actually exist, that your neighbor has a basement, that your neighbor isn't a liar. It is rational to believe his claim.
But I do know that people do lie. My neighbor could be lying. I don't even know for sure he has a basement. His house could be built on a slab or piers for all I know. Would it still be rational to believe his claim?
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 11:43 am
(This post was last modified: November 4, 2014 at 11:45 am by Chas.)
(November 4, 2014 at 11:38 am)TreeSapNest Wrote: (November 4, 2014 at 11:22 am)Chas Wrote: You have indirect evidence. You know that mice actually exist, that your neighbor has a basement, that your neighbor isn't a liar. It is rational to believe his claim.
But I do know that people do lie. My neighbor could be lying. I don't even know for sure he has a basement. His house could be built on a slab or piers for all I know. Would it still be rational to believe his claim?
Look, have fun moving the goalposts, but you're on your own with that. I stated the premises, you want to change them. Go ahead; when you would like to address what I actually said, I would be interested.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 11:54 am
(November 4, 2014 at 12:13 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Anyone want to debate formally in the debate section with me.
What I want to prove:
Belief in God cannot be proven to be irrational.
That's a very interesting way of putting the question.
We can say whatever we like about god but what about people's belief in these things?
Most debate is predicated on whether or not god exists typically punctuated with a cursory hand grenade of 'how can you believe in something that doesn't exist' thrown in at the end, when that, somewhat ironically, is the more interesting question IMO.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 11:59 am
(November 4, 2014 at 11:43 am)Chas Wrote: Look, have fun moving the goalposts, but you're on your own with that. I stated the premises, you want to change them. Go ahead; when you would like to address what I actually said, I would be interested.
No post moving. I'm just curious where the boundries are with rational and irrational. We know people can lie. I don't know if my neighbor has a basement or not. How skeptical do we need be to qualify as being rational?
Is it rather, believing claims contrary to our understanding (as with the dragon) that are irrational to believe?
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 12:05 pm
(November 4, 2014 at 9:07 am)whateverist Wrote: (November 4, 2014 at 1:51 am)Exian Wrote: Whateverist, I hereby challenge you to a formal, on-going snide remarks on the side contest that rolls in and out as the mood strikes us, for the remainder of our time here at AF.
Oh this is so on! Challenge accepted. I would like to say that the final judge of said Challenge be the singular expert on snide remarks....
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 12:13 pm
Anyone willing to accept the challenge?
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 12:16 pm
(November 4, 2014 at 12:13 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Anyone want to debate formally in the debate section with me.
What I want to prove:
Belief in God cannot be proven to be irrational.
I assume you would be arguing for the affirmative.
In that case, I cannot debate with you as I agree it is true.
Evidentially, no gods exist, but the belief in them clearly does.
I'd argue that holding such a belief is rational from a consequential, utilitarian viewpoint because:
1) it can be shown to be advantageous in maintaining social cohesion within the group of believers.
2) it can be used to scam resources from the group of believers.
3) the prevalence and highly conserved nature of said belief across cultures and time shows that it is positively selected for in competitive environments.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 12:26 pm
(November 4, 2014 at 12:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Anyone willing to accept the challenge? You can look at my posts with Chas in this topic for background. What would need to be shown to demonstrate that it is irrational? When is a view irrational?
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RE: Anyone want to debate this formally with me?
November 4, 2014 at 12:31 pm
(November 4, 2014 at 12:26 pm)TreeSapNest Wrote: (November 4, 2014 at 12:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Anyone willing to accept the challenge? You can look at my posts with Chas in this topic for background. What would need to be shown to demonstrate that it is irrational? When is a view irrational?
I don't want to get into that discussion here, because, I think it will be one of the main parts of the debate.
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