Opinions on Ukraine

[DeistPaladin]

What are your opinions about Ukraine and their current civil war? who is right? who is justified? who's the victim? who benefits?

I wonder if a solution to the crisis is just to accept two Ukraines, one in the west where the people want independence and a western part that is either annexed by Russia or a pro-Russian Ukraine, as seems to be popular sentiment there.

This would be a peace proposal that would not play well in the American media, especially if a Democrat is the one to propose it, but it does seem to be the most fair solution based on the limited information I have.

Please note my heavy disclaimer that I'm hardly an expert on that part of the world and would welcome correction if I'm wrong on anything I just wrote.

[JuliaL]

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia"
- but only slightly less well-known is this:
"Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

[abaris]

I wonder if a solution to the crisis is just to accept two Ukraines, one in the west where the people want independence and a western part that is either annexed by Russia or a pro-Russian Ukraine, as seems to be popular sentiment there.

This would be a peace proposal that would not play well in the American media, especially if a Democrat is the one to propose it, but it does seem to be the most fair solution based on the limited information I have.

Please note my heavy disclaimer that I'm hardly an expert on that part of the world and would welcome correction if I'm wrong on anything I just wrote.

Well, from where I live, it's not very far to the borders of Ukraine. And like so many nationalist conflicts, it's roots are deeply imbedded in history.

You see, Ukraine is pretty similar to Poland. It was divided between the Austro Hungarian empire in the west and Russia in the East up until the end of WWI. And it's situation is being unstable ever since - to the point where the Ukranians actually supported the German invasion of 1941 until they saw the Germans hadn't come to liberate them from the Soviets but to keep them as slaves.

The original demand of todays separatists was a federal state solution, which the Kiew government denied them. That's the point where Russia actually saw an opening to intervene on the seperatists behalf.

[DeistPaladin]

...And it's situation is being unstable ever since - to the point where the Ukranians actually supported the German invasion of 1941 until they saw the Germans hadn't come to liberate them from the Soviets but to keep them as slaves.

A "what if" scenario I have imagined is what if the Germans had not tried to annex any territory when they attacked the Soviet Union but instead offered to the Ukrainians and Baltics their own independent countries, no strings attached, if they helped in the fight against Stalin. Germany would have destroyed its only rival power on the continent and the Ukrainians and various Baltic people would have gotten their independent countries.

Of course, such a scenario precludes the Nazi mentality that the Germans were the master race destined to rule the world and thus precluded the whole second world war in the first place.

[abaris]

A "what if" scenario I have imagined is what if the Germans had not tried to annex any territory when they attacked the Soviet Union but instead offered to the Ukrainians and Baltics their own independent countries, no strings attached, if they helped in the fight against Stalin. Germany would have destroyed its only rival power on the continent and the Ukrainians and various Baltic people would have gotten their independent countries.

I don't know if you realize, but the Baltic states were actually independent between the world wars.

As your said yourself - what if scenarios don't actually work.

[downbeatplumb]

Ukraine, the prelude to a new cold war.

Putin hankers for the "old days".

[DeistPaladin]

I don't know if you realize, but the Baltic states were actually independent between the world wars.

Yes. The Ukraine and Belorussia were also independent for a very brief period of time after WWI. Stalin invaded the Baltics at a later time, I think around when he invaded Poland with Hitler.

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Ukraine, the prelude to a new cold war.

Putin hankers for the "old days".

As do many in my country as well. It's awfully hard to justify our bloated defense budget and sustaining the military-industrial complex when your greatest adversary is a group of people who try to set bombs off in their underwear or shoes and can't even manage that.

[downbeatplumb]

As do many in my country as well. It's awfully hard to justify our bloated defense budget and sustaining the military-industrial complex when your greatest adversary is a group of people who try to set bombs off in their underwear or shoes and can't even manage that.

Indeed, your military is geared up to fighting a technologically advanced foe, but instead are battling bombs in biscuit tins and SUVs with heavy machine guns.

It's rather embarrassing.

[DeistPaladin]

Indeed, your military is geared up to fighting a technologically advanced foe, but instead are battling bombs in biscuit tins and SUVs with heavy machine guns.

It's rather embarrassing.

Thank God (figure of speech) for British intelligence. It's intel work that is needed to fight these guys and our bumbling CIA is clearly not up to the task.

[Minimalist]

SUVs with heavy machine guns.

Hey. Who else uses a million dollar missile to blow up a $20,000 truck? How do you think the defense industries make their profit?