R -E - S - P - E - C - T: Who gets it and who decides?

[Tartarus Sauce]

Behavior and intellect have much more influence in the respect equation for me. Where one lies on the theological spectrum will not hold sway over those two factors.

I've seen a fair share of both poor quality theists and atheists pass through here.

[Jenny A]

Theists who understand that faith is not rational and is a choice to believe without evidence elicit more respect in me than theists who insist that their belief is rational.

Why is it that some people tacitly assume that atheism is the rational position and that theism is not? Isn’t that already a slightly disrespectful position from which to start a conversation?

Because it's not an assumption, tacit or otherwise. There is no real evidence of god. To believe without evidence is not rational. To assert there is evidence, is not a respectable position.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Yeah, so long as by atheism we just mean a lack of belief -and that is what a lot of us mean- then atheism really is the neutral position....the situation is not at all the same.

This whole simply only merely just lack of belief idea strikes me as not at all a truly neutral position and still quite disturbing. Any current atheist that was previously a theist has presumably had some kind of religious experience. Religious experience is so common and basic t the human condition that attributing it to illusion, or whatever, is a stance - the rejection of the idea that religious experiences are what they appear to be - divine.

BTW thank you, I think.

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Why is it that some people tacitly assume that atheism is the rational position and that theism is not? Isn’t that already a slightly disrespectful position from which to start a conversation?

Because it's not an assumption, tacit or otherwise. There is no real evidence of god. To believe without evidence is not rational. To assert there is evidence, is not a respectable position.

Case in point.

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...I think I expect a lot less rationality in human affairs than you do.

You might be surprised to know that I attempt to balance the creative and experiential aspect of mind with reason and intellect. It is not that I rely on or value rationality more than other aspects of mind. I find it a useful tool to help integrate other aspects of self.

[Jenny A]

Why is it that some people tacitly assume that atheism is the rational position and that theism is not? Isn’t that already a slightly disrespectful position from which to start a conversation?

Still ruminating on this. I think I expect a lot less rationality in human affairs than you do. I value it less too. We'll, I do value it so far as it applies and is useful but I don't expect it to apply everywhere. I think you do expect rationality to follow you everywhere and expect more of it from your fellow man. This constantly surprises me because I know about your artwork. Being an artist must mean something different to me than it does to you. I come at it more in the e.e. cummings manner. I guess we just are two different people. I'm fine with that but sometimes I like to probe and look for the core beliefs where we split.

Not exactly. I don't expect rationality at all times. I couldn't live up to such a standard and wouldn't want to. What I do demand (not that I always get it) is an understanding of when we are talking about what can rationally be proven and when we are talking about what is felt. I'm quite capable of dissolving into a little bundle of emotions myself. It's just that I think it's healthier to know what one's rational motivations are and what one's emotional motivations are. Bolstering emotions with fake rationality is deadly. That's what I deplore.

My paintings are largely about my emotional view of the world. My rational mind may help out with comments about composition, but the paintings are ultimately an emotional conversation. You might discuss the composition or perspective of my paintings rationally just as you might dissect E. E. Cummings meter. But ultimately Cummings is not about meter.

[JuliaL]

I can't respect willful ignorance.

I can.
But then again, I have a flexible definition of right and wrong.
Those things of which I approve are right.
Those things of which I disapprove are wrong.
Crossing the streams is bad.
I reserve the option to change this definition at will.

Pigheaded, stubborn denial of obvious fact can be respected as a powerful strategy to defend a common position within a social hierarchy. Theists, probably unaware, cohere in groups BECAUSE of their total adherence to shared fantasy. Rational, supported truths do not provide this functionality because their correspondence to reality can be confirmed by anyone and so do not serve to identify the individual as a specified group member. It's the contrafactual beliefs which force their holders together more strongly. The wackier the belief, the more dedicated the believer has to be to hold it, the stronger the glue sticking them together.

The believer may not be aware of the strategy they use, but it and they can still be respected as powerful and effective in maintaining stability. The belief doesn't have to be true. In fact, it probably works better if it is false.
I think it unwise for atheists to only hammer on the obvious falsehoods readily available in religions. It forces the true believers closer together. Some may be better reached by pointing out that this is what is happening to them.

.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I make change in the coin tendered. If someone is decent to me, I'm decent to them, and I don't care what they might believe or not believe.

If someone treats me rudely -- namecalling, condescension, imputing positions that clearly aren't implied -- then they get the same treatment in return.

I much prefer to be polite, but I have no problem at all being an asshole, as I'm sure people both here and elsewhere, including IRL, will attest.

[Whateverist]

Respect, as I'm using the word, refers to the esteem that some people elicit from us and others don't. Still others elicit the opposite reaction. We find them despicable and revile them.

But respect is about what we feel. What became clear in the closed thread is that many/most of us place more stock in how people behave than in what they feel or believe.

Tolerance is a stance and prerequisite to good manners. These are instilled in youth (or not) and further conditioned by our life experiences thereafter. It doesn't seem reasonable to hold people accountable for the conditioning their life circumstances have thrown their way, but behavior is another matter.

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If you're an atheist, do you hold theist in low esteem because of their god belief? If you're a theist, do you hold atheists in low esteem because of their rejection of god belief?

Personally, I find god belief doesn't automatically dampen the respect I have for a stranger. However, the more I learn about how that belief is held, the needle on the respect-0-meter can either go up or down. The more a theist claims certainty in their god belief, the more I notice it adversely affecting their capacity for sound reasoning. When their behavior toward others in the service of their god belief becomes pushy, pompous, condescending, manipulative, dishonest .. the needle can plummet to zero. But the same can happen when a stranger's lack of god-belief leads them to treat believers with contempt for no other reason than what it is they believe, well then again the needle plummets. In both cases, there seems to be some amount of reason-impairment and when that leads to poor treatment of others they lose respect from me.

In the last thread, I made the mistake of 'calling out' examples of theists whose reasoning and manners I respect, some others whose struggles I have empathy for and so no lack of respect, and others who are total poopoo heads whose behavior brands them as dullards and miscreants. This time I won't make the mistake of calling them by name. You will know them easily enough by their actions.

[dyresand]

It all depends on the person that's all ill say all in all were just people and theist and atheist are just a world that just describes the person.
if i had to say it or put it to who is more likely to have low self esteem it would be a such a low fraction for atheists but statistically higher for theists.

[Lek]

If you're an atheist, do you hold theist in low esteem because of their god belief? If you're a theist, do you hold atheists in low esteem because of their rejection of god belief?

Personally, I find god belief doesn't automatically dampen the respect I have for a stranger. However, the more I learn about how that belief is held, the needle on the respect-0-meter can either go up or down. The more a theist claims certainty in their god belief, the more I notice it adversely affecting their capacity for sound reasoning. When their behavior toward others in the service of their god belief becomes pushy, pompous, condescending, manipulative, dishonest .. the needle can plummet to zero. But the same can happen when a stranger's lack of god-belief leads them to treat believers with contempt for no other reason than what it is they believe, well then again the needle plummets. In both cases, there seems to be some amount of reason-impairment and when that leads to poor treatment of others they lose respect from me.

In the last thread, I made the mistake of 'calling out' examples of theists whose reasoning and manners I respect, some others whose struggles I have empathy for and so no lack of respect, and others who are total poopoo heads whose behavior brands them as dullards and miscreants. This time I won't make the mistake of calling them by name. You will know them easily enough by their actions.

I'll agree with you about this part of your post.

[Tonus]

I think that for the most part, I judge people on how cool they seem to be in general, and not on one specific aspect. At least if that aspect does not dominate their personality. Most of my family and friends and colleagues are religious on some level, but only a very small number wear their religion on their sleeves (and those mostly happen to be in the "family" and "colleagues" groups). It's not surprising if people wear their beliefs on their sleeves here, since the forum has a specific theme and specific topics of discussion.

As for respect, I offer a certain amount to anyone I don't know, and that respect will increase or decrease depending on what I see. I don't demand respect from anyone on a discussion forum, because it's a fairly limited stage to work on and the internet is overflowing with trolls and idiots. Expecting respect from everyone you encounter will likely end in disappointment more often than not, even if you happen to act in a manner that could be reasonably deserving of respect.