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(December 14, 2014 at 11:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(December 14, 2014 at 10:43 pm)FlyingNarwhal Wrote: You're using the term 'victim' here pretty broadly, as in if someone makes another person feel bad, that person is now a victim. By that same logic, a gay person should deny their sexuality if there family isn't accepting of gay people, because it may hurt their family's feelings and make them victims. That gay person knew their family was against homosexuality, and decided to come out of the closet anyways. Fucking selfish....
That analogy is wrong, because the family should accept the person regardless of his sexual orientation. In the case of suicide, the people affected ought to feel hurt about the person dead and can't be blamed for it.
I would argue that the family should also be accepting of someone's "life orientation" as well. Plus to a family deeply immersed in their religion, if someone is gay it might not mean they die at that moment, but to the religious family it could mean eternal damnation. I really don't believe in eternal damnation, but to a family that does, believing your little brother will be tortured for the rest of eternity has got to hurt a lot too. At the end of the day what we are talking about is people trying to control someone else's personal life choices. This is a very black and white issue for me, my life...my choice.
December 18, 2014 at 8:03 pm (This post was last modified: December 18, 2014 at 8:04 pm by bennyboy.)
(December 18, 2014 at 9:59 am)FlyingNarwhal Wrote: Late response, but oh well, been super busy.
I would argue that the family should also be accepting of someone's "life orientation" as well. Plus to a family deeply immersed in their religion, if someone is gay it might not mean they die at that moment, but to the religious family it could mean eternal damnation. I really don't believe in eternal damnation, but to a family that does, believing your little brother will be tortured for the rest of eternity has got to hurt a lot too. At the end of the day what we are talking about is people trying to control someone else's personal life choices. This is a very black and white issue for me, my life...my choice.
I think almost this entire thread had been a red herring: whether any particular treatment or stance toward suicidal people is ethical. Should we prevent the act? Should we support it? Is it unethical to deny the right of suicide to someone who chooses it? Isn't the family being unfair by pressuring someone to live who doesn't want to?
Very few people have made any actual attempt to look at the suicide itself and answer a simple question: is it ethical, and (more importantly) why? What is the philosophical basis for establishing the rightness or wrongness of suicide?
(December 18, 2014 at 4:21 am)robvalue Wrote: In practical terms, and ethical terms, I think education is the only way forward. Any action should be to "protect someone from themselves", but not to be confused with enforcing prolonged suffering of someone who no longer wants to live.
(December 18, 2014 at 3:10 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: I think education is the only possible way forward of the three options presented.
No offense, but I don't think you guys are being realistic. How do you "educate" against manic depression, or schizophrenia, or the extreme imbalances caused by drug addiction and withdrawal?
If someone isn't thinking straight, and they want to kill themselves, you have to prevent them from killing themselves, because they may straighten out later, find value and joy in their lives, become productive (and enlightened because of the obstacles they've overcome) members of society.
I grant that you can't educate someone back to sanity, but not all suicides are a result of mental illness (in the clinical sense).
December 19, 2014 at 5:02 am (This post was last modified: December 19, 2014 at 5:04 am by bennyboy.)
(December 18, 2014 at 9:59 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: I grant that you can't educate someone back to sanity, but not all suicides are a result of mental illness (in the clinical sense).
Yeah, it's almost impossible to draw clear guidelines on whether someone has the capacity to make a decision of that import. Especially in the elderly, there are confounding factors that sometimes get ignored. For example, mood swings can be a side effect of non-psych drugs. It's possible that Gramps is depressed the Grammy died, feels his life has run its course, and wants to leave gracefully, before he's nothing but a bag of bones. It's also very possible, however, that some of the more than 10 different meds he's probably taking are interacting in unfortunate ways; a simple prescription change might give him a little more time to enjoy his grandkids or to complain about his no-good son-in-law.
___
Another thing I think we haven't talked about is the method of suicide. Not every suicide has to be by a shotgun in the mouth, or by a bottle of downers and a quarter of Jack Daniels. I think those methods are kind of a "fuck you" to the survivors.
I think the ethics of suicide really is about the effect on others-- it always sucks to lose a loved one, but that could be balanced by the inspiration of an old geezer choosing to go out with a bang, perhaps? What about arranging to have a hang-gliding accident, or dying while climbing Everest or something? Or why not go to Africa and save a few kids until you inevitably catch Ebola?
Without regard to the actual act of suicide, I'm pretty sure it's unethical to do it in a way that you know will bring harm to others: "Nobody cares about me-- well, maybe they'll care if they have to clean my brains off their precious Norwegian hand-printed wallpaper." That's a dick move, that.
Sure, there's a message in every act of such import, one way or the other. It's one reason why we seem to admire people who die (suicide or no) doing what they love, because their death, to us survivors, is in itself a message.
I suppose I accept as axiomatic that life is better for being lived, and that ending it is to be avoided except in extremity. What those extremities might be for myself I have no clue. Because of that, I'm loathe to judge too harshly those who reached that bitter end.
Your point about method, and the message it sends, is damned clear and apt.
December 26, 2014 at 2:35 am (This post was last modified: December 26, 2014 at 2:44 am by AwakeOSleeper.)
Perhaps I hold a different and less logical view than most of my peers. Nonetheless I believe in the power of the mind. Happiness, sadness, futility, and joy are all very real and somewhat tangible things. So, living in a way that makes YOU believe you are creating value in the lives of yourself and especially others is incredibly important. By creating the "illusion" (for lack of a better word) of importance you are, in actuality, creating value. Even if it leads to no greater good (I personally believe humans are ultimately depraved and selfish), it is still having an effect on your mind and is therefore an effort that is worth while. In other words, whatever keeps you believing that you are not meaningless is worth it, if for no other reason than, you are creating a very real happiness within yourself. Also, I do not believe that faith in God or gods is foolish. It is a mechanism that we have designed to bring ourselves happiness, even if it is wrong or misplaced. Clearly I do not have all the answers and you are welcome to voice your disagreements and pose questions to me. One of the hardest things about figuring personal beliefs out is thinking of things to question and, on top of that, actually thinking out a coherent response.
(December 16, 2014 at 12:46 am)Losty Wrote: Did you seriously compare suicide to pedophilia and murder? One causes real harm and the other causes hurt feelings. Hurting someone's feelings is only unethical if you do it intentionally. Not if it happens as a side effect of something you did to save yourself.
Hey, do you think it's unethical to commit suicide if you have a disease that causes excruciating pain and have been given 5 years to live in pain?
I firmly believe the best thing people can do is take care of themselves. I cannot help anyone if I do not first help myself. So, in that way, one should not take other peoples' feelings into consideration before suicide. However, as a person who has been mentally scarred by another's suicide, I must say it is hard. It is so so hard and I could never imagine putting another through that. Western nations have very much become individualist societies, which has their merits. Even so we often neglect the impact every action we do has on everybody else and it is sad. (I'm not sure what this means when it comes to taking one's life).
It is selfish to take one's own life but it is also selfish to do anything. Everything you do is selfish but that is not necessarily a bad thing. When it comes down to it, everyone who helps others, does it because it makes them feel better. But is that a bad thing? I do not think so. The point is it is a very complicated question and I do not have the answer. Although I would like to say I fully support euthanasia; however, I do not have the knowledge nor the patience to actually suggest a plan of action that would be safe and free of fraud.
(December 26, 2014 at 2:35 am)AwakeOSleeper Wrote:
Perhaps I hold a different and less logical view than most of my peers. Nonetheless I believe in the power of the mind. Happiness, sadness, futility, and joy are all very real and somewhat tangible things. So, living in a way that makes YOU believe you are creating value in the lives of yourself and especially others is incredibly important. By creating the "illusion" (for lack of a better word) of importance you are, in actuality, creating value. Even if it leads to no greater good (I personally believe humans are ultimately depraved and selfish), it is still having an effect on your mind and is therefore an effort that is worth while. In other words, whatever keeps you believing that you are not meaningless is worth it, if for no other reason than, you are creating a very real happiness within yourself. Also, I do not believe that faith in God or gods is foolish. It is a mechanism that we have designed to bring ourselves happiness, even if it is wrong or misplaced. Clearly I do not have all the answers and you are welcome to voice your disagreements and pose questions to me. One of the hardest things about figuring personal beliefs out is thinking of things to question and, on top of that, actually thinking out a coherent response.
(December 16, 2014 at 12:46 am)Losty Wrote: Did you seriously compare suicide to pedophilia and murder? One causes real harm and the other causes hurt feelings. Hurting someone's feelings is only unethical if you do it intentionally. Not if it happens as a side effect of something you did to save yourself.
Hey, do you think it's unethical to commit suicide if you have a disease that causes excruciating pain and have been given 5 years to live in pain?
I firmly believe the best thing people can do is take care of themselves. I cannot help anyone if I do not first help myself. So, in that way, one should not take other peoples' feelings into consideration before suicide. However, as a person who has been mentally scarred by another's suicide, I must say it is hard. It is so so hard and I could never imagine putting another through that. Western nations have very much become individualist societies, which has their merits. Even so we often neglect the impact every action we do has on everybody else and it is sad. (I'm not sure what this means when it comes to taking one's life).
It is selfish to take one's own life but it is also selfish to do anything. Everything you do is selfish but that is not necessarily a bad thing. When it comes down to it, everyone who helps others, does it because it makes them feel better. But is that a bad thing? I do not think so. The point is it is a very complicated question and I do not have the answer. Although I would like to say I fully support euthanasia; however, I do not have the knowledge nor the patience to actually suggest a plan of action that would be safe and free of fraud.
The reasons behind suicide can go well beyond being able to find meaning in life. It ultimately comes down whether or not the quality of your existence is good enough to keep maintaining it. Sometimes the mental anguish can wear you down to the point where your only goal is to make it go away, even if that means taking the easy road out. When I tried to commit suicide, I didn't really want to die. I truly desired to live, but with a life free of pain. At that point however, I no longer saw that as a possibility. My mental suffering had beaten me down so badly and sucked me of all my will to fight against it that I just wanted to be free of it, no matter what the cost.
There many different reasons people commit suicide, so that makes approaching the issue somewhat tricky. I think the best way to attack is it at a fundamental level by creating emotional stability. That comes from properly developing emotional bonds when we're children, especially in the first five years. Much of how our brain functions as adults is determined in these early stages, so if we want address complex emotional issues, we have to evaluate how we treat children both culturally and individually.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
December 26, 2014 at 9:41 pm (This post was last modified: December 26, 2014 at 9:42 pm by fr0d0.)
(November 29, 2014 at 8:04 pm)Quantum1Connect Wrote: What is the logical reasoning and moral angle against suicide?
The only thing I can refute myself with is the probably fact that one day I will be happy and well balanced. But really, that isn't logic is it?
(Disclaimer: I'm not severely suicidal, just someone with some tendencies that come and go and am trying to logically refute my self.)
Sure it's logical. I know personally that life is a series of fluctuations between emotions. Sometimes during an extended down I find it helpful to realise that up has an equal chance of occurring. I find it hard to believe but still, the hope is rational. Without hope humans are lost. There's always the chance to change. I heard a great woman speak on the penal system in the UK and give this reason that punishment should never be final.
