we don't send ourselves to hell

[FatAndFaithless]

Take your statement word for word and imagine a Muslim saying it.
"What works for me can work for others, as long as they take the right path. I know Allah exists, I have all the evidence I need."

Would you believe him? Why not? How can you prove him wrong?

Actually because I know that this Allah doesn't exist, I do not concern nor worry myself about it. That's why I can't understand why atheist waste time with something they do not believe exists.

GC

You...do see how obnoxious and discussion-killing that is, right? You claim to know you're God is right, a Muslim might claim to know his God is right, and you both just turn your noses up and refuse to entertain the notion that you might be wrong, because you just know you're right.

Meanwhile you both look down on the atheist who has to live under the laws you make in society based on your religious justifications, justifications which you won't even reconsider because of your certainty. We (or I, at least) care about the God question because we do happen to share the same world and communities and the actions of those who act with absolute certainty in the name of God affect us as well.

[Godscreated]

Call me crazy, but I find it hard to see how a relationship can be called a 'loving' one if fear of one party by another is a major and integral part of it.

I can't imagine why one can't love another because they have respect for another, including the respect of their ability to punish, and why, because they know more through superior knowledge and experience that is good for me to obey. I love those who care enough to punish me when I do things that are wrong, as a child it took time to learn, as an adult I see the value in it.

GC

[FatAndFaithless]

I doubt you'd want your children to look upon you with fear, or as you put in another thread, with "trembling".

[abaris]

I doubt you'd want your children to look upon you with fear, or as you put in another thread, with "trembling".

That's what I tried to communicate on the previous page.

[Godscreated]

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Any one who doesn't fear a person with superior strength when one opposes them is being foolish. To avoid being foolish I have respect for God, it a simple choice and quite logical, don't you think so. As a child I had respect for my father most of the time, when I forgot that I should always have that respect I got into trouble doing something I shouldn't have, I then was punished I also forgot to fear that punishment, very foolish of me. My father's concern was for me to obey and stay out of trouble and the fear of punishment was there to remind me. Even though he is now gone, I still love him for all he was.

GC

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By the same token, I should fear Superman as far as the evidence is concerned.

And a sad story you're telling there. I did respect my father very much, but I didn't fear his punishment, since he never punished me. He only told me, I was wrong when something happened. I respected him for being an open minded, tolerant man. And more than I respected him, I loved him.

Well I have never seen nor experienced Superman and since I do not believe in aliens from other worlds, I don't worry about him. He does make for good movies.
There's nothing sad about my story. My father loved me enough to punish me for doing wrong, maybe that's why I believe criminals should be punished, not just for the sake of punishment, but to help them correct their ways through teaching, just as my father did. There are always consequences for wrong doing, at least in a society that plans on existing for a long time.

GC

[John V]

First off, the messianic prophecies aren’t that specific, not even Isaiah 53.

Why do you even accept them as prophecies at all, if God can't know what men will do?

If they had been definitive then the very scripturally literate apostles would have recognized the danger to Jesus long before it happened.

One can reject a clear teaching. Jesus plainly told the disciples that he would die in Jerusalem, and they rejected it.

Second, a person can know a general outcome going into a situation without knowing the specifics.

That's not the case here. The specific timing of Peter's denial was given.

If Jesus hadn’t been crucified, he’d a-been hung or beheaded. If Pilate hadn’t sentenced Jesus, someone else would have.

So your position is that God can't predict the actions of any single man, but he can know what a group will do? How does that work?

If one searched hard enough someone could probably find a prophecy for each of those eventualities.

When you do that let us know.

In my opinion, the root of the problem is that people look back into the words of the prophets for historical references when they should be trying to understand the timeless symbolic significance. The words of the prophets speak to our current situations and the human condition in general.

In my opinion, you're denying the clear teaching of Scripture in order to resolve free will issues.

Peter's denial wasn't certain when Jesus predicted it? Are you seriously saying that?

Yes. But remember as you near a decision point the scope of potential choices gets reduced.

Enough said. I worship a different god than you do. To me, if Jesus said it was going to happen, it was going to happen. It wasn't merely a matter of probabilities.

Again, someone can know what will happen even if they do not know how. Almost certainly, my wife and I will eat dinner tonight. What we actually eat remains to be decided.

Again, some predictions, such as the timing of Peter's denial, or the selection of the house for the passover, do indeed go to the level of what will be eaten.

[Godscreated]

I doubt you'd want your children to look upon you with fear, or as you put in another thread, with "trembling".

I have no children and you will have to show me the post where I said I trembled before my father before I believe what you stated.

GC

[abaris]

Enough said. I worship a different god than you do. To me, if Jesus said it was going to happen, it was going to happen. It wasn't merely a matter of probabilities.

We finally came to the my god's bigger discussion between theists.

[Godscreated]

Actually because I know that this Allah doesn't exist, I do not concern nor worry myself about it. That's why I can't understand why atheist waste time with something they do not believe exists.

GC

You...do see how obnoxious and discussion-killing that is, right?

It's how I live, maybe it would be better for the discussion if I had lied, but it wouldn't have been better for me.

You claim to know you're God is right, a Muslim might claim to know his God is right, and you both just turn your noses up and refuse to entertain the notion that you might be wrong, because you just know you're right.

God has proven His existence to me, I have no doubt about His reality, sorry if you have trouble with that. That being said, God says He is the only God all others are false, so by reasoning through God's proof to me there can be no other God. So I ignore all other claims and go on with my God, it's hard to have a notion I might be wrong when God has proven without a shadow of doubt He's real.

Meanwhile you both look down on the atheist who has to live under the laws you make in society based on your religious justifications, justifications which you won't even reconsider because of your certainty.

Please name those laws, I'm not unreasonable and I do not look down on atheist, I do not like the attitude most bring to a discussion but, as a Christian I am to love all people, yes sometimes it's hard.

We (or I, at least) care about the God question because we do happen to share the same world and communities and the actions of those who act with absolute certainty in the name of God affect us as well.

Most Christians are reasonable people, you judge all of us by the few who think making trouble is the way to go. They don't even follow what the scriptures teach, to often they bring hate and fear into things, it's just wrong.
Yes we have a set of morals given us by God and many go against our nature but, we know they are good for us and we feel they benefit society and we like to see them implemented. Just as you think some of what we see as good you see as wrong and don't want implemented. That's why we have the right to vote and courts and a process of legislation. We all need to work through these institutions and change what we believe is right but, should respect what's implemented until we can change things and hating each other does no one any good.

GC

[FatAndFaithless]

One giant "I'm right because I know I'm right and they're wrong because I know they're wrong." No thanks GC, you can keep your echo chamber.