My privilege as a straight, white, cisgender, middle class thin male

[paulpablo]

Ok I'll concentrate on the points I think are wrong one at a time so they're easy to discuss and look over.

2 - For being white:

- My race is not used as an objectified form of fetish to please others (i.e. People who say they have a thing for black people, they only date that specific group because they are black, and not because of who they might be as people) - Just watch asian or ebony porn to get a better glimpse.

1) I am white I've been with black girls, and eastern girls who have both said they have a thing for white guys and wouldn't date their own race. So it's not a privilege if this also happens to white people.

2) I imagine a lot of black guys don't see it as a negative thing, I can't imagine going up to a crying black guy and saying "Hey what's the matter buddy" and him saying " I've just found out all the massive amounts of pussy I've been getting is because girls have objectified my race".
I even remember seeing an interview of a black guy who was around in the 70s in england and he was saying he felt like a movie star being black in the night clubs at that time because of the girls he was getting.
So again it's not a privilege if you want to be objectified, if it helps you get lots of sex.

I'm actually on a swingers type of website, and a LOT of black guys invite this type of "objectification" and use it to their advantage to advertise to girls who do like black guys, they name themselves things like LondonBBC (big black cock) in the chat rooms there.

3)There's porn out there of every race, with mixtures of every race, petite asians, blonde swedish girls, brazilian butts, you name it and it's there. In cuckhold porn white guys or asian guys are often objectified and used as the guys with small dicks who have their wives taken off them by black guys.
There's no advantage in being white here because porn exists out there of all races.

People who say they have a thing for black people, they only date that specific group because they are black, and not because of who they might be as people)

4) Just because a girl says she has a thing for black girls doesn't mean she doesn't appreciate a good personality, it's probable and I'd say highly likely that she still wouldn't date a black guy who she didn't get along with personality wise.
Again even if the girl is just dating a guy purely because he is black it's a matter of perspective as to if the guy is at a disadvantage or advantage because of this.
A lot of rich guys don't see it as a disadvantage that they get good looking women just because they are rich, Larry David jokes about this in an interview it's pretty funny.
Additionally this pretty much happened to me, a middle eastern Muslim girl used to date me on a regular basis, I'm almost certain it was a turn on for her because her parents didn't like white people or non muslims, and ontop of using me for that I think she also tried to use me to get her ex boyfriend jealous.
I wasn't unprivileged because of this, had a lot of great kinky sex, a great time, she loved it, no one went away crying because of the hardship of being so underprivileged that our race had just been objectified.

[Mister Agenda]

I think the point of discussing priviledge is to help people empathize with those who have fewer or different privilges. It shouldn't be a contest of what individual has the most or least privileges.

I was raised in grinding poverty for a good part of my youth, and in regular poverty for most of the rest of it. So being white didn't give me a head start on economic advantages. But I'm now a front-line manager in large corporation, so I have achieved middle-classdom without those advantages. No help with college, no down payment on a home, none of that sort of thing that's common among the middle class. But I'm a white man in South Carolina. Though I'm aware of no overt racism in my favor, I look around my division and see no black men in management. Plenty of women, and black women aren't poorly represented, but no black men in a county that's around 40% black. I suspect I may have wound up economically benefitting from being white after all, in the long run.

Being aware of that helps me understand the frustration a black man might feel at the difficulty, say, of breaking into mangement. Knowing that, unlike me, a black man can't take for granted that he won't be shot by a cop if he reaches into my car for the ID just requested, helps me be aware of another privilege I have. Knowing I'm less likely to be followed around a store by security or considered armed and dangerous if I pick up a BB gun at Wal Mart also helps me be aware of the privilege I have.

And THAT awareness helps me understand how people could become so fed up with being treated as inferior and dangerous because of something they have no control over that they become irrational and riot over something minor because it was the fucking last straw. Which helps me not be one of those guys who are like 'Why do they bust up their own neighborhoods? Why can't they be sensible like us white people'.

Because I've been that guy. It took a lot of steps to be a different guy.

[paulpablo]

2 - For being white:
- I'm assumed to be the standard person because of my skin colour, and other people are seen as exceptions and determined or identified by their skin colour, while I'm just assumed to be a person and I am identified by my personality

Only true if you never leave the confines of a white majority neighborhood, if you go to a black or hispanic neighborhood, chances are at least some people will identify you as "That white guy". Maybe if it's a tough area you might even get picked on as an easy target for crime too.

I live in a mainly pakistani area in England and I've never been called "That standard guy", I've been called that white guy, white trash, white bastard, made fun of for being white.
I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it, I think racist people make themselves look like idiots by being racist and it's only a small minority of people that act like this.
I can only guess that it's because of where you live that gives you these view points.
Like I said I'm from England and white, my town used to be much worse, we would have areas where you would definitely be identified for you race and most likely chased out of that area if you were white and in a pakistani area. White people have been killed, even old men beaten up with lumps the size of golf balls on their head.

Now you say in the intro to the thread you kind of do a preemptive strike against my argument, you say that you know people are going to say "hey white people have racism against them too", and you go onto say that it isn't a competition about who has suffered from the most racism.
Well I'm not saying it's a competition, I'm not saying I've been oppressed.
I'm just trying to suggest to you that there's places probably, relatively not so far from where you live where you will be identified as the white guy, there's probably some places that aren't that far from where you live where people will go as far as thinking "What's that white guy doing here? Let's rob this guy".

[Dystopia]

Correct, but excluding those segregated neighbourhoods in the rich part of my town white people are the norm and blacks wandering around are seen as potential criminals - This also means blacks are associated with poverty. I know that perspective shifts, but considering the average citizen white is seen as the average, and is represented as such even in the media. Even a black friend of mine, upon being asked to describe the standard person, thinks of a "middle aged, white, clean shaven man".

Instead of fighting over white privilege, check out this instead:

http://people.terry.uga.edu/mustard/sentencing (USA only but still relevant)

[paulpablo]

Correct, but excluding those segregated neighbourhoods in the rich part of my town white people are the norm and blacks wandering around are seen as potential criminals - This also means blacks are associated with poverty. I know that perspective shifts, but considering the average citizen white is seen as the average, and is represented as such even in the media. Even a black friend of mine, upon being asked to describe the standard person, thinks of a "middle aged, white, clean shaven man".

Instead of fighting over white privilege, check out this instead:

http://people.terry.uga.edu/mustard/sentencing (USA only but still relevant)

But this isn't how a conversation works, if you say bees can't fly and I say they can, you don't just say "Yeh well the bee is only flying to work hard, besides, let's talk about this other topic instead."

I could understand if you had originally said "I'm quite privilaged that most other people where I live are the same race as me, therefore I'm not identified by my race and more by my personality in most cases." But if you call something a privilage for white people, even if you say it's a privilege for white people in all of America, it still isn't. It's only a privilege if you're white, and you live in a mainly white neighborhood, you're lucky enough to have never met a racist person of another race, and you never visit places more diverse than your neighborhood ever. So you really don't specifically get this privilege for being white, you only get it if you're white and by the luck of the draw manage to avoid racial objectification all your life.

[Dystopia]

So what? The point about white being default is not the most relevant to prove being white is not hard as some might put it... Your experience or mine are completely irrelevant, when the majority of the population is white, chances are that being white is seen as default and the first thing people notice about you is not your race, unlike what happens with people of colour - In fact, if I meet a black guy the first thing I notice is that he is black, so I am not guilt free.

And the majority of the population in America is white despite the existence of many immigrants and people with different ethnic roots. Considering the average white person makes more money than a person of colour, it's probable that you'll live in a middle class urban area and therefore will be seen as default - And that blacks or latinos will make less and live in poor neighbourhoods - Not your case, I know, but it doesn't take away the general rule.

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1) I am white I've been with black girls, and eastern girls who have both said they have a thing for white guys and wouldn't date their own race. So it's not a privilege if this also happens to white people.

But they don't have sexual stereotypes about white people as much as we have about other races.
The amount of times people of different races are fetishized is prevalent compared to white people - This isn't about race only, but stereotypes regarding race sexuality and sexual traits - For instance black women have the stereotype of being hypersexual and always wanting big dicks, asian women are seen as fragile and submissive, latinas always have big butts, and so on - White girls don't have a specific stereotype attributed to them when it comes to sexuality, they're just girls who like sex. The same applies to men - Black men always have BBC's and want pussy all the time, asian men have small dicks and are perverts, and so on - These are racial stereotypes regarding sexuality and they exist, for whites there is no prevalent sex stereotype other than "we enjoy sex" - Those stereotypes are also the reason people sometimes decide to date those races - I want to date a black girl because she must love getting pounded all the time, I want to date an asian girl because she'll like being submissive in bed - Do I need to continue?

2) I imagine a lot of black guys don't see it as a negative thing, I can't imagine going up to a crying black guy and saying "Hey what's the matter buddy" and him saying " I've just found out all the massive amounts of pussy I've been getting is because girls have objectified my race".
I even remember seeing an interview of a black guy who was around in the 70s in england and he was saying he felt like a movie star being black in the night clubs at that time because of the girls he was getting.
So again it's not a privilege if you want to be objectified, if it helps you get lots of sex.

The fact it brings benefits doesn't erase the negative aspect of it, even the most terrible things can bring benefits.

3)There's porn out there of every race, with mixtures of every race, petite asians, blonde swedish girls, brazilian butts, you name it and it's there. In cuckhold porn white guys or asian guys are often objectified and used as the guys with small dicks who have their wives taken off them by black guys.
There's no advantage in being white here because porn exists out there of all races.

I know this, but why isn't there a white category and white porn has a diverse list of films - From submissive to dominant, from blond to redhead and so on - And there's categories for "ebony, asian, latina.." which normally are based on stereotypes (i.e. Black women in porn are usually get chicks who always say they want some big black cock - I've watched a lot of porn; asian girls are always submissive and yelling at a low volume - I'll admit I like these) - If you want white porn, you'll just type a regular category, if you want black, you have to search for "black/ebony" - Also, why is it that in every porn video with, for instance, a black woman there's always "black getting pounded etc etc" in the title but for white chicks it's only "girl getting fucked bla bla bla" - Could you answer these questions and debate this?

4) Just because a girl says she has a thing for black girls doesn't mean she doesn't appreciate a good personality, it's probable and I'd say highly likely that she still wouldn't date a black guy who she didn't get along with personality wise.

There are many people who date races because of the stereotypes I've talked about - Heck a female friend of mine dated a black guy just because she wanted to see his cock - Not saying it's not good, but usually dating when looking for a relationship shouldn't be based on these stereotypes, don't you think?

Again even if the girl is just dating a guy purely because he is black it's a matter of perspective as to if the guy is at a disadvantage or advantage because of this.
A lot of rich guys don't see it as a disadvantage that they get good looking women just because they are rich, Larry David jokes about this in an interview it's pretty funny.
Additionally this pretty much happened to me, a middle eastern Muslim girl used to date me on a regular basis, I'm almost certain it was a turn on for her because her parents didn't like white people or non muslims, and ontop of using me for that I think she also tried to use me to get her ex boyfriend jealous.
I wasn't unprivileged because of this, had a lot of great kinky sex, a great time, she loved it, no one went away crying because of the hardship of being so underprivileged that our race had just been objectified.

You can have lots of advantages with that. I'm just addressing the problem of fetishism and sexual prejudices made about certain races. I'm not saying they can't bring benefits, but they don't out-stand the disadvantages of porn sites hosting a site with videos perpetuating stereotypes about your ethnicity's supposed sexuality or people dating you only because you're of a certain race because there's stereotypes attributed to it and it looks exotic because of that.

[paulpablo]

You can have lots of advantages with that. I'm just addressing the problem of fetishism and sexual prejudices made about certain races. I'm not saying they can't bring benefits, but they don't out-stand the disadvantages of porn sites hosting a site with videos perpetuating stereotypes about your ethnicity's supposed sexuality or people dating you only because you're of a certain race because there's stereotypes attributed to it and it looks exotic because of that.

And what are the disadvantages and problems that black people face by being objectified? That only black people face that you have the privilege of not facing because you're white.

And AGAIN with the sweeping generalized statements.

I've watched a lot of porn; asian girls are always submissive and yelling at a low volume

Wrong. I can probably provide around 10 videos in about a minute of asian dominatrix women.

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Heck a female friend of mine dated a black guy just because she wanted to see his cock - Not saying it's not good, but usually dating when looking for a relationship shouldn't be based on these stereotypes, don't you think?

I don't think dating should be based around the sole purpose of a girl wanting to see a guys cock in general whether it's race related or not, but if you're a man who wants sex with women, women wanting to see your cock is a benefit in most circumstances. It's at least a good spring board to get started from.

We really don't need to go back and forth on these arguments much and go at it paragraph after paragraph discussing different perspectives, the bottom line is just that you're sweeping generalized statements are just wrong, because they are so generalized.
I don't know if you do it by accident or not but you tend make statements about large vast topics in a very specific opinionated way.
Like the asians in porn are always submissive. Asians are in a LOT of porn, and they are in a LOT, and I mean a LOTTTTT of dominatrix porn.

[Dystopia]

And what are the disadvantages and problems that black people face by being objectified? That only black people face that you have the privilege of not facing because you're white.

- Objectification is not good because it reduces by definition people to objects to an extent
- All of those advantages are sexual, and it fades away when the only reason a guy dates an asian women is because he thinks she'll be a good submissive housewife, or a black woman because he thinks she'll never refuse sex, or when a woman dates a black man and gets surprised that he doesn't want sex all the time and doesn't have a huge BBC (this could hurt the man because he doesn't fit the stereotype and might want a meaningful relationship). It's two sides of the same coin, and I think attractiveness to race without assigning stereotypes like those would be better and healthier.

Wrong. I can probably provide around 10 videos in about a minute of asian dominatrix women.

I've seen those (laugh...) - But BDSM is a specific type of fetishism porn about domination and submission - It's not the most common mainstream straight couple fucking people - Please search for videos with any dominant asian women in a regular sexual intercourse with an asian man sex scene, and compare to the absurd number of videos with asian male perverts having sex with moaning asian schoolgirls - I've watched these categories, all of them, if there's something I can talk about fully it's porn and I know how it works.

I don't think dating should be based around the sole purpose of a girl wanting to see a guys cock in general whether it's race related or not, but if you're a man who wants sex with women, women wanting to see your cock is a benefit in most circumstances. It's at least a good spring board to get started from.

Yes but what if I want a relationship with love and meaningful emotions? again two sides of the same coin. What if I don't like that stereotype because my cock is average and I feel bad about it?...

We really don't need to go back and forth on these arguments much and go at it paragraph after paragraph discussing different perspectives, the bottom line is just that you're sweeping generalized statements are just wrong, because they are so generalized.

I'm opinionated by definition but that's just who I am, apologies if I may sound rude sometimes. Generalized statements are meant to define something without putting away exceptions - When I say "X works like Y" I don't mean sometimes "X works like Z" can't be a valid proposition, but the general rule isn't invalidated by exceptions. The fact that fetishism and sexual stereotypes about other races exist is true and I've been hearing them since I was a child, I remember hearing my grandma saying that black girls have this thing that brings them to fuck men all the time without being able to stop... Honestly, it doesn't take a genius to perceive sexual stereotypes about ethnicity and the fact there are no prevalent stereotypes about whites, generally whites have average size cock/vagina and enjoy sex, that's all - Whereas when you tell me other kind of porn I imagine a stereotyped scenario - I.E. If you say "ebony porn" I imagine a ghetto chick with gigantic boobs and ass fucking a pimp with a BBC - If you say "white porn" I can imagine a redhead, a brunette, large or thin, doing various kind of stuff but without any stereotypical scene in mind since there's no stereotype towards white people's sexuality (if there was I'd probably know since I'm white)

I don't know if you do it by accident or not but you tend make statements about large vast topics in a very specific opinionated way.
Like the asians in porn are always submissive. Asians are in a LOT of porn, and they are in a LOT, and I mean a LOTTTTT of dominatrix porn.

Yes I know - But I've already addressed that BDSM is not a common type of porn and follows a very different method to please the audience - BDSM as an example of mainstream porn is not reliable since it only focuses on people that like BDSM, whereas mainstream videos are more generic. In fact if there's a style of porn that doesn't have stereotypes it's BDSM, I'll say that, and I like it quite a lot.

EDIT - Now that you've said that, I really hope I'm not elected as the forum's most opinionated member - Sometimes I'm not aware of how opinionated I might be.

[paulpablo]

When I say "X works like Y" I don't mean sometimes "X works like Z" can't be a valid proposition, but the general rule isn't invalidated by exceptions.

It is because of the way your statements are formed, you don't say things like

"In mainstream porn, often asian women are submissive."
You say things like.
"In porn asian women are always submissive."

The latter is invalidated quite easily because of how general the terms you use are and by the massive amounts of porn out there with dominant asian women in.

The same goes if you say "In the area I live in, most of the time I'm quite sure I'm not identified by my race, I'm just a standard person identified by my personality."
Then I couldn't argue with you, I'd just assume you're telling the truth.

BUT when you say "Right here are the privileges I got from being white. I'm not identified by my race, I'm just seen as the standard person, whereas other races are seen as the exception."
Such a generalized statement immediately makes me puzzled and I feel the need to question such a statement. I'd want to ask, well how do you know you're never identified by groups of black people as being a white guy? Do you never go to areas where you're the minority race for being white and are more likely to be identified as being white rather than just seen as a standard person?
If these are privileges you get JUST for these things which you didn't choose then it doesn't work because it ceases to be a privilege once you enter an area where white people are no longer in the majority and you're identified as being "That white guy." Or worse.

[Dystopia]

It is because of the way your statements are formed, you don't say things like "In mainstream porn, often asian women are submissive."
You say things like.
"In porn asian women are always submissive."

By porn I meant mostly mainstream typical porn, not specific fetish porn - I thought that would be easy to understand.

The latter is invalidated quite easily because of how general the terms you use are and by the massive amounts of porn out there with dominant asian women in.

Yes but it's not mainstream intercourse porn, it's usually BDSM, foot fetish and other kinds of fetishized porn not everyone likes watching as much as common porn. Most males will probably watch intercourse regular porn and not BDSM specifically unless there's a fetish, and the image it creates is one of submission and fetishism with asian women.

The same goes if you say "In the area I live in, most of the time I'm quite sure I'm not identified by my race, I'm just a standard person identified by my personality."
Then I couldn't argue with you, I'd just assume you're telling the truth.

BUT when you say "Right here are the privileges I got from being white. I'm not identified by my race, I'm just seen as the standard person, whereas other races are seen as the exception."
Such a generalized statement immediately makes me puzzled and I feel the need to question such a statement. I'd want to ask, well how do you know you're never identified by groups of black people as being a white guy? Do you never go to areas where you're the minority race for being white and are more likely to be identified as being white rather than just seen as a standard person?
If these are privileges you get JUST for these things which you didn't choose then it doesn't work because it ceases to be a privilege once you enter an area where white people are no longer in the majority.

Actually no I've never been into such a place - But my point is that it's far more predominant for a black to walk into a white territory than the opposite - If you look at demographics, most if not all western countries are dominated by white population (or white latinos), not black hyspanic or latino or asian - This fact alone makes it more likely for a black to walk into a white urban area and get identified by the colour of his skin, than a black doing the same - Though I've already said it can happen, but even if it happens, it's still preferable to be white due to other factors I've showed you (like chances of imprisonment or the average wage of a black compared to a white) - And considering white families make more money than others, it's more likely a white family will live in a decent urban area and not in a poor one with people of colour where he/she might indeed face racism - I might as well tell you it has happened that to me but not with blacks, rather with gypsies, there's a gipsy neighbourhood in my city - However I also know that that racism towards me is insignificant compared to the stereotypes about gypsies that people (even me) have - Like all of them being criminals, or all of them stabbing people and hate going to school