Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Can you support this claim with solid data?

Which part? That alcohol contributes to rape? That some males have a genetic predisposition toward rape? That no law will prevent rape from happening?

I think it's all supportable, but how about you save me the time and specify which part of it you think is false or unreasonably speculative?

The part I quoted, of course -- about genetic tendencies of X% to commit rape.

And I didn't apply those adjectives to your claim. I asked for you to support it. Please quit putting words in my mouth, or thoughts in my head, thanks.

[Nope]

Based on my personal field research, if you like porn AS MUCH as I do, then you are on the pointy part of the bell curve as far as females go, and I'm right on the hump for men.

Don't believe me? How often do men willingly view lesbian porn, and consider it a postive experience? Now. . . how often do women willingly view gay porn, and consider it a positive experience?

My field research online says differently. LOL Off line, many women that I know claim to hate porn yet online, I come across many women who are just like me. I think that it can be very frightening for some women to admit in person what turns them on because they don't want to be viewed as abnormal. Online offers anonymity so more women are open about their habits.

When I was younger, I didn't like gay porn but never really watched it. While I was watching Game of Thrones, I found myself thinking that Loras and Renly's relationships was hot so maybe I would have always liked two men having sex if I'd just been open to watching something new.

[bennyboy]

Which part? That alcohol contributes to rape? That some males have a genetic predisposition toward rape? That no law will prevent rape from happening?

I think it's all supportable, but how about you save me the time and specify which part of it you think is false or unreasonably speculative?

The part I quoted, of course -- about genetic tendencies of X% to commit rape.

And I didn't apply those adjectives to your claim. I asked for you to support it. Please quit putting words in my mouth, or thoughts in my head, thanks.

I'm putting no words in your mouth, but requesting you to express enough words that I can answer your question. No you have, so I will try to comment.

I don't know what percent "X" represents. You can google as well as I can; here are a couple random links.

http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-...e-rapists/
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/200...predators/

However, I know that "X" is non-zero, and that demonizing rapists after the fact will do little to reduce rape in the future-- because the demon is in the DNA. Humans are animals, no less brute than gorillas or chimpanzees, but with a more presentable veneer. But that veneer is only skin deep, and it doesn't take much for that monkey brain to escape its bounds.

Real steps CAN be taken-- through better sex education, through the elimination of sexual repression, and through women not taking unnecessary chances in the name of trust, or with the false sense that the social mores that people proclaim so loudly in the daylight will provide them a non-zero amount of protection in the darkness of night.

So long as PC is seen as a shining shield against reality, that X% will continue to get, and take, their chances.

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My field research online says differently. LOL Off line, many women that I know claim to hate porn yet online, I come across many women who are just like me. I think that it can be very frightening for some women to admit in person what turns them on because they don't want to be viewed as abnormal. Online offers anonymity so more women are open about their habits.

When I was younger, I didn't like gay porn but never really watched it. While I was watching Game of Thrones, I found myself thinking that Loras and Renly's relationships was hot so maybe I would have always liked two men having sex if I'd just been open to watching something new.

Interesting. I don't think your comments represent the majority of women, but that doesn't really matter. You are female, and you are asserting your own experience that your inclinations are not so different than mine, and I accept that.

If there are other females who think like me, then so much the better. Maybe the lusts and aggression that I deal with as part of being a man are more understandable to women than I thought.

[Losty]

Don't believe me? How often do men willingly view lesbian porn, and consider it a postive experience? Now. . . how often do women willingly view gay porn, and consider it a positive experience?

I prefer literary porn or home DD videos (doesn't even need sex), but if I am going to watch porn it's going I be gay porn unless someone else asks me to watch something else.
The plastic Barbie doll faking her orgasm is a major turn off for me.

[abaris]

Don't believe me? How often do men willingly view lesbian porn, and consider it a postive experience? Now. . . how often do women willingly view gay porn, and consider it a positive experience?

I'm certainly not the mainstream male when it comes to porn, but watching people fuck has never turned me on. But you're right, there's always a lesbian scene in most of the Blue movies. I was always amused by that, since I automatically thought about the producers introducing a male on male scene also and how their audience would react.

As for the muslim countries, I think the answer is obvious-- these people are sexually repressed because they are told that all non-reproductive sex, including masturbation and porn, is a violation against Allah. So they get all bottled up and end up exploding.

Not true. A recent study has shown that muslim countries are among the leading nations when it comes to looking for gay internet porn. According to a video on the Young Turks, the most used search topic was "men fucking men". Also, do you really think that Allah is preventing them from fapping? Stay real, man.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm putting no words in your mouth, but requesting you to express enough words that I can answer your question. No you have, so I will try to comment.

If you didn't mean to impute a view to me, you should have chosen your words more carefully. And I provided all the information you need the first time out.

I don't know what percent "X" represents. You can google as well as I can; here are a couple random links.

http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-...e-rapists/
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/200...predators/

You had to google to support your point with "random links"? Have you read them for yourself?

However, I know that "X" is non-zero, and that demonizing rapists after the fact will do little to reduce rape in the future-- because the demon is in the DNA. Humans are animals, no less brute than gorillas or chimpanzees, but with a more presentable veneer. But that veneer is only skin deep, and it doesn't take much for that monkey brain to escape its bounds.

Real steps CAN be taken-- through better sex education, through the elimination of sexual repression, and through women not taking unnecessary chances in the name of trust, or with the false sense that the social mores that people proclaim so loudly in the daylight will provide them a non-zero amount of protection in the darkness of night.

So long as PC is seen as a shining shield against reality, that X% will continue to get, and take, their chances.

I don't think you understood me. I was asking you to support the claim that at least some men are genetically inclined to commit rape.

[Dystopia]

I think what's relevant is not if a desire for rape is biologically normal/natural, in fact there's one or two feminists that have said it themselves rape desires from men are from a purely naturalistic standpoint acceptable and can't be avoided... What really concerns me is if there is evidence that these neurological and brain properties men have prevent them from controlling their actions making it impossible to avoid raping someone? And by this I actually mean being completely non controlable, like when you are in a situation of life and death and you kill without thinking because your primary instinct told you to

Here goes a problem - If that was proven true, then that means that just like people with mental disorders are often considered not guilty because it's not their fault to not possess enough psychic faculties to know what they're doing, then sexual offenders as well couldn't be considered guilty since they were born with a desire that is physically uncontrollable according to bennyboy. I repeat, it's not about if it's natural or not or if it exists, but rather it it's not controllable by our brains (Hint - I sometimes feel like beating the shit out of people who piss me off but I don't, I have extreme rape fantasies, me being the rapist, and I don't put them in practice, I just exercise my sexual freedom in the bedroom and if I'm not able to I won't do it - Maybe this is a natural desire? Dunno, but I know I have control over my penis and my body's actions)

Your proposal also ignores the fact that rape is highly related do a sensation of power, control over the victim, that arouses the perpretator, and not only sexual arousal - If it was that, then you can't explain why married or men who are able to have sexual intercourse consented may still rape, not to mention your conception of the highly attractive female with short clothes being drunk is not representative of the majority of rapes that occur repeatedly by the same perpetrator to the same victim, and doesn't imply being overly sexy since victims with different body types, races and beauty trends are raped. It also doesn't justify why men are other men considering the majority are straight, is it really about sexual satisfaction or rather a feeling of power?

[abaris]

I think what's relevant is not if a desire for rape is biologically normal/natural, in fact there's one or two feminists that have said it themselves rape desires from men are from a purely naturalistic standpoint acceptable and can't be avoided... What really concerns me is if there is evidence that these neurological and brain properties men have prevent them from controlling their actions making it impossible to avoid raping someone?

Going by what criminal profilers and psychologists found out in their line of work, rape is much more of a power trip than it is sexual. Like every other crimes committed by psychopaths, it's goal is to utterly dominate another person.

[Dystopia]

I think what's relevant is not if a desire for rape is biologically normal/natural, in fact there's one or two feminists that have said it themselves rape desires from men are from a purely naturalistic standpoint acceptable and can't be avoided... What really concerns me is if there is evidence that these neurological and brain properties men have prevent them from controlling their actions making it impossible to avoid raping someone?

Going by what criminal profilers and psychologists found out in their line of work, rape is much more of a power trip than it is sexual. Like every other crimes committed by psychopaths, it's goal is to utterly dominate another person.

You were going well until you mentioned psychopaths - Most rapists are suggested to be the average Jon, not really psychos like serial killers (though these may rape as well, it's not as frequent as murder and killing people, some take zero interested in rape) but still there seems to be a connection in some studies that show rapists were abused as kids. Here's an interesting article on 4 categorized types of offenders depending on the profile (http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Four-...159973.php)


Here's another one to check - http://sapac.umich.edu/article/196 --» This article explains perfectly the myths, facts and what is right and not, making it clear what contributes to rape or not - And among those factors you could find socio-cultural ones, as long as a lack of punishment that motivates sexual assault but also any other crime


In fact, the characteristics in the last one like impulsivity and emotional constriction don't really fit into an antipersonality disorder like psychopathy. There's also references to other studies and research to check out.

Summary of important points from this section:

Sex offenders comprise an extremely heterogeneous population.
There is no typical profile of a rapist, but they share some common characteristics.
Sex offenders are overwhelmingly male, typically have access to consensual sex, and were not sexually or physically abused as children.
Men are more likely to commit sexual violence in communities where sexual violence goes unpunished.
Sex offenders are experts in rationalizing their behavior.
Cross-cultural studies of rape identify the following factors as contributors to sexual violence: sex-role socialization, rape myths, lack of sanctions for abuse, male peer group support, pornography, adversarial sexual beliefs, lack of empathy, and all-male membership groups such as fraternities and sports teams.
Alcohol abuse has been identified as a strong correlate of college rape.
In a study on male sexual coercion, 23% of college men admitted to getting a date drunk or stoned to engage in sexual intercourse.
Alcohol can be a disinhibitor and increase sexual impulsivity, as well as lower women’s detection of risk and impair their ability to resist assault.
Intercourse cannot be consensual when the woman is incapacitated due to intoxication.

[Bold mine to emphasize]

[bennyboy]

Don't believe me? How often do men willingly view lesbian porn, and consider it a postive experience? Now. . . how often do women willingly view gay porn, and consider it a positive experience?

I prefer literary porn or home DD videos (doesn't even need sex), but if I am going to watch porn it's going I be gay porn unless someone else asks me to watch something else.
The plastic Barbie doll faking her orgasm is a major turn off for me.

When I said "gay," I meant male gay: i.e. that most men will get off on watching lesbians have sex, but I don't think most women will get off on watching gay men have sex. Nor will they (I think) much enjoy watching even a handsome, buff guy masturbating.

I totally agree about the Barbie doll and the obvious faking. I happen to like Japanese videos to look at, but I have to turn off the sound-- Japanese porn sounds like a chipmunk getting pushed through a wood chipper.

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What really concerns me is if there is evidence that these neurological and brain properties men have prevent them from controlling their actions making it impossible to avoid raping someone? And by this I actually mean being completely non controlable, like when you are in a situation of life and death and you kill without thinking because your primary instinct told you to

A lot of compulsive actions are a real challenge to the philosophical idea of free will. An alcoholic goes through a long process-- begging for money, walking to a liquor store, buying some wine, putting it in a bottle, finding a place to drink it, etc. And while some addicts DO manage to intervene and change their behaviors, most do not.

An an individual level, we can fault people for not having the strength of will to change their behavior. But over a whole population, we know that if people have access to acohol, a percentage of them are going to become alcoholics. And if enough men have access to females in vulnerable circumstances, a percentage of them are going to commit rape.

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I don't think you understood me. I was asking you to support the claim that at least some men are genetically inclined to commit rape.

Show me any culture in which women are not raped. If no men in a culture had the predisposed inclination toward rape, then there would not have been any mechanism by which rape could become part of any culture. Therefore, "at least some men are genetically inclined to commit rape," and rape cannot be an exclusively cultural artifact.