Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?

[paulpablo]

Holy crap, what did I miss?

I'm a "man-hating feminist", I suppose, by your definitions. I recognize the immeasurable privileges I hold in this society by being a white male. I recognize the Patriarchy that has made our culture the way it is. Patriarchal values have destroyed countless lives and continue to do so, and they affect us in subtle ways in almost every exchange we have in this society.

Yes, men have to deal with some things that are difficult, even the occasional double standards, but the worst we will ever go through pales in comparison to every day of the life of women in our supposedly-enlightened society.

While nobody questions that there are feminist extremists who take the concept too far, it's insane to try to equate the far fringe with the common views of the overall movement. It's why I am a male and am proud to call myself a feminist. The idea that trying to root out wrongs that have been perpetrated against women for so long that most men never even notice it's happening or think there's anything wrong with how we are socialized to treat women, for trying to ensure that the business world does not discriminate against women just because it has been a "boys club" for centuries, for trying to attack our "rape culture" in which men feel entitled to the bodies of women they like, and for trying to stem the overwhelming tide of domestic abuse and intimidation that marks the lives of women everywhere, equals "oppression" or hatred of men is beyond ludicrous.

The data are clear: if the nation does not take legal action to protect women from discrimination, they will be routinely discriminated against, based on a long social tradition that has oppressed and used them throughout most of our culture's history.

Being skeptics, we are free to question any or all aspects of feminism... but when you start whining about oh poor men we're so oppressed, you lose me. It simply is not borne out by any significant studies of the subject, and a few anecdotes here and there do not change the overwhelmingly one-sided data that shows we have a long way to go before we have a society in which I would feel proud to tell my daughter (I don't know yet, but have hope my baby due in late January is female) she will be growing up. Until then I fight to fix it. And I tell guys who want to whine about feminism and speak about egalitarianism that feminism is egalitarianism. There's no difference, except in the minds of a few radical proponents of matriarchy (something I doubt strongly would be any better than what it purports to replace), between feminism and egalitarianism... but the fact that you think there is only shows that the feminists' fight is not even close to being completed.

What privileges do you have by being a white male in society and what do all women have to go through that a man will never have to go through?

[Dystopia]

This actually reminded me of something - How would people react if there was a woman anti-feminist speaking against feminism because she believed it was evil?

TBH I don't think her being female would be relevant. It would just be another case of someone misunderstanding what feminism actually is.

To draw an analogy:

A self-hating closet homosexual who is also highly homophobic is no more or less homophobic than a heterosexual homophobe. Homophobia is despicable regardless of whether the person who is homophobic is homosexual themselves or not. Just as a self-hating woman who also hates all other women and is misogynistic is just as despicable as a man who hates women and is misogynistic, in and of itself. In both cases it's still misogyny.

I agree with you, Evie, but when a member of a group speaks out against his/her own group it seems to have extra credibility - For example, a black person criticizing BLM is seen as more credibly than a white, etc. My GF is technically mixed race, as her grandad was gipsy, evne though no one actually notices it, and she is really racist against gipsies (it's more cultural hatred than racial dislike really), if I said something bad about gipsies, I would be racist, but if my GF says it, it's ok because she is technically one of them herself.

[Losty]

Okay, so since it seems like we've mostly settled down now, I would like to use this time to accentuate a point that I made two days ago. The double standard that we just witnessed in this thread is my case and point. The reason that people have ganged up on me, which I have held out through, through a brutal roasting for the past 2 days, is because I was speaking out against feminism. If I were speaking out against anti feminists, there would have likely been a lot of people getting behind me, watching my back. My reaction in this thread is a response to the tone of the posters. I solemnly swear that my true nature as a human being is good, but I can easily be swayed to a more defensive and stand offish position.

As we've seen in this thread, there's a lot of people who seem to take joy in this. I don't have anything against you, without the heat of arguments going on. I believe in the deeply complex nature of human emotions, and I'm sure if you try it yourself you can look past anything that was said erroneously. In loo of the unfortunate fight that I've been seeing on the last couple pages, I would just like to reiterate that if feminists didn't automatically feel that they're right about their point, they wouldn't feel the need to erroneously laugh off everything that is said against them.

I know that it may be a bit of a martyrdom to say this, but you know that good deeds never go unpunished. Thank you, thank each and every one of you. At this point in time I hold no negative feelings for any of you

Unfortunately I can't say the same for you

[DespondentFishdeathMasochismo]

Okay, so since it seems like we've mostly settled down now, I would like to use this time to accentuate a point that I made two days ago. The double standard that we just witnessed in this thread is my case and point. The reason that people have ganged up on me, which I have held out through, through a brutal roasting for the past 2 days, is because I was speaking out against feminism. If I were speaking out against anti feminists, there would have likely been a lot of people getting behind me, watching my back. My reaction in this thread is a response to the tone of the posters. I solemnly swear that my true nature as a human being is good, but I can easily be swayed to a more defensive and stand offish position.

As we've seen in this thread, there's a lot of people who seem to take joy in this. I don't have anything against you, without the heat of arguments going on. I believe in the deeply complex nature of human emotions, and I'm sure if you try it yourself you can look past anything that was said erroneously. In loo of the unfortunate fight that I've been seeing on the last couple pages, I would just like to reiterate that if feminists didn't automatically feel that they're right about their point, they wouldn't feel the need to erroneously laugh off everything that is said against them.

I know that it may be a bit of a martyrdom to say this, but you know that good deeds never go unpunished. Thank you, thank each and every one of you. At this point in time I hold no negative feelings for any of you

Unfortunately I can't say the same for you

---

---

This picture sums up all of your responses to me in this thread very nicely.

[Losty]

This actually reminded me of something - How would people react if there was a woman anti-feminist speaking against feminism because she believed it was evil?

Regardless of the sex of a person, I will mock them if they speak against "feminism" from a flawed definition of the word. I am a female feminist and I have spoken against feminism on many occasions on this very forum. The reason this moron was mocked (and yes s/he was mocked, not fucking attacked good lord) is because he/she defines feminism in some retarded way that makes no sense. Right yes, feminists are fat ugly dikes who hate men. Really? Most feminists are egalitarians. That there are a few feminists on the internet who take being PC way too far and only support women's rights doesn't mean that's what defines feminism.

[Dystopia]

This actually reminded me of something - How would people react if there was a woman anti-feminist speaking against feminism because she believed it was evil?

Regardless of the sex of a person, I will mock them if they speak against "feminism" from a flawed definition of the word. I am a female feminist and I have spoken against feminism on many occasions on this very forum. The reason this moron was mocked (and yes s/he was mocked, not fucking attacked good lord) is because he/she defines feminism in some retarded way that makes no sense. Right yes, feminists are fat ugly dikes who hate men. Really? Most feminists are egalitarians. That there are a few feminists on the internet who take being PC way too far and only support women's rights doesn't mean that's what defines feminism.

Yes, saying "feminists want to enslave men" sounds like a conspiracy and should not be considered an argument, and there's lots of huge strawman against feminism, but there's women who genuinely had bad experiences with some mainstream branches of feminism and don't want to be a part of it for X and Y reasons. This is, of course, also true for men who have contact with the "let's castrate men" feminists.

[Losty]

I will gladly engage in a civil discussion about feminism with anyone I believe capable of having an intelligent conversation. There are things about feminism that I am all for. There are things I hate. There are people whose behavior I find so repulsive that I find myself doubting whether I want to stain myself with the label of feminism. I'm all for discussing it. I learn something new every time the discussion comes up (real ones not stupid ones). I find myself shifting back and forth with my opinion.

And then there are people that are so stupid, so completely incapable of intelligent conversation that they're forced to resort to such drastic hyperboles to make their point that you're wondering if it's really a hyperbole at all or if it's fallen over into the realm of blatant lie. And then I have to ask myself, is this person so stupid or are they just trying to get people riled up. In the end I always decide it doesn't matter and I just light heartedly mock them for my own entertainment.

That is what happened here.

Oh and dfdm, for you love

[DespondentFishdeathMasochismo]

I will gladly engage in a civil discussion about feminism with anyone I believe capable of having an intelligent conversation. There are things about feminism that I am all for. There are things I hate. There are people whose behavior I find so repulsive that I find myself doubting whether I want to stain myself with the label of feminism. I'm all for discussing it. I learn something new every time the discussion comes up (real ones not stupid ones). I find myself shifting back and forth with my opinion.

And then there are people that are so stupid, so completely incapable of intelligent conversation that they're forced to resort to such drastic hyperboles to make their point that you're wondering if it's really a hyperbole at all or if it's fallen over into the realm of blatant lie. And then I have to ask myself, is this person so stupid or are they just trying to get people riled up. In the end I always decide it doesn't matter and I just light heartedly mock them for my own entertainment.

That is what happened here.

Oh and dfdm, for you love

---

---

Trying to get the issue into these black and white portraits just shows how you're completely ignorant. Go back like 20 pages, you'll see that I made about 2 or 3 serious comments, then it was quickly derailed by some feminists who just said things like "jesus christ". Maybe if we could back pedal past the crap that everyone in this thread has been spewing for the past 2 days, which all boils down to "if that's true, then explain my feelings" then we can talk about who doesn't have any fucking argument. What a waste of time, arguing with someone if they have no desire to even engage you.

[Edwardo Piet]

I already get that you totally disagree with me and hate me as a person.

Yeah I disagree but how does that mean I hate you as a person? I detest a lot of the things you've said but although I hate the behaviors and comments of some people I don't really hate anyone as a person. I don't believe in free will and I believe that although everyone has choices and makes decisions, and everyone has legal and moral responsibilities, I don't believe in ultimate absolute responsability and I don't believe any choices or decisions are fully free.

I see it pointless to hate a person when I feel we should instead be focusing on what really matters: Mitigating suffering and deterring harm and immorality. I also see retribution as nothing but destructive.

So while I hate a lot of the things you said on this thread, no I don't hate you as a person but I ultimately don't' hate anyone as a person, although I am human and I can get riled sometimes.

  btw I also want to remind you that I was ganged up by fucking everyone, for the past 2 days and had no one backing me up. So if you think that I'm not going to start getting fierce in what I say then you're just an unfair person.

Not backing you up doesn't equate to unfairness. No one here is your lawyer, I would only back you up if I felt your posts deserved backing. And you were mistaken to ever think I backed you, I was arguing against a particular comment made against you but I would have reacted the same to that regardless of who that was addressed to.

Btw, I'd really like it if you'd respond to my last post

Very well but only because I would do the same for anyone else, and because it doesn't require much time and energy to do so. In fact I was just about to respond anyway but then I saw this post and chose to respond to this one first. I tend to always respond to forum users regardless of whether they are being a dick or being reasonable. The only time I don't bother is if it's a subject I feel completely ignorant of and I feel my comments are worthless - and I am also not being addressed - or if I'm basically having a futile debate with a theist that is going nowhere I sometimes end the debate and no longer bother responding to them on the matter with a comment similar to this: "Look , I used to debate with theists all the time here on AF but these days I see it as pointless and futile, so seen as we clearly aren't getting anywhere I'm done here. You can declare "victory" as much as you want it doesn't make your skydaddy any more real."

Ok so I'll respond now:

Okay, so since it seems like we've mostly settled down now, I would like to use this time to accentuate a point that I made two days ago. The double standard that we just witnessed in this thread is my case and point. The reason that people have ganged up on me, which I have held out through, through a brutal roasting for the past 2 days, is because I was speaking out against feminism. If I were speaking out against anti feminists, there would have likely been a lot of people getting behind me, watching my back. 

I disagree, I think the real reason why people are pissed off with you is because you started by grossly misrepresenting what feminism actually is at its core and then you didn't like it when people called you out on that, and then you didn't like it even more when people didn't like you insulting them and being a rude asshole. The fact you continued to sling insults but remained shocked when others did the same back is the real double standard here.

My reaction in this thread is a response to the tone of the posters. I solemnly swear that my true nature as a human being is good, but I can easily be swayed to a more defensive and stand offish position.

Swear as much as you want. I believe you are trying to be good but I will consider you good only when your behavior demonstrates that consistently and for long enough that you are no longer the same person who resorted to completely inexcusable behavior and comments that were bigoted and cruel.

As we've seen in this thread, there's a lot of people who seem to take joy in this. I don't have anything against you, without the heat of arguments going on. I believe in the deeply complex nature of human emotions, and I'm sure if you try it yourself you can look past anything that was said erroneously.

I already don't hate you as a person, I don't hate anyone as I explained earlier in this post. I don't need to "try" it is very condescending for you to act like the more moral person here. What I do hate is the way you have behaved in this thread, and as for my ever seeing past it, as I said just above:

I will consider you good only when your behavior demonstrates that consistently and for long enough that you are no longer the same person who resorted to completely inexcusable behavior and comments that were bigoted and cruel.

In loo of the unfortunate fight that I've been seeing on the last couple pages, I would just like to reiterate that if feminists didn't automatically feel that they're right about their point, they wouldn't feel the need to erroneously laugh off everything that is said against them.

"Feminists" don't do that at all. That is both a massive misrepresentation and a hugely gross sweeping generalization of a group of people. It's bigoted to suggest that all feminists are that way, or even that the majority are. Feminism at its core is merely supporting the rights of women, it is egalitarianism, true feminists don't hate men at all, they are pro-women's rights not anti-men's rights. And that is VERY different.

I know that it may be a bit of a martyrdom to say this, but you know that good deeds never go unpunished.

It's not martydom, what it is is another false generalization and a trite platitude. Good people can do good things and get wrongly punished or rightly rewarded, bad people can also do bad things and get rightly punished (depending on the punishment and if it actually deters immoral behavior and/or mitigates suffering) or wrongly rewarded. Real life isn't all black and white and simple.  Life is complicated and has all the colours of the rainbow and every shade. It can't be summed up with a cliché.

Thank you, thank each and every one of you.

I wonder if you genuinely mean that? You haven't behaved like you're remotely grateful, in fact you're behaved much more hateful than grateful.

If  you want my honest opinion this seems like false modesty on your part. It doesn't mean you're not at least making an effort to better yourself now, and if you are making that effort that is good. So don't let me discourage that effort with my comment that you seem to have false modesty here. It's just the way I feel, what I think and my honest opinion.

At this point in time I hold no negative feelings for any of you

Hmm.... well I hope that really is the case... regardless of whether it is true or not, try to make your behavior and posts reflect that absence of negative feelings towards people in future, rather than leaving hateful comments and acting childish.

[Losty]

I will gladly engage in a civil discussion about feminism with anyone I believe capable of having an intelligent conversation. There are things about feminism that I am all for. There are things I hate. There are people whose behavior I find so repulsive that I find myself doubting whether I want to stain myself with the label of feminism. I'm all for discussing it. I learn something new every time the discussion comes up (real ones not stupid ones). I find myself shifting back and forth with my opinion.

And then there are people that are so stupid, so completely incapable of intelligent conversation that they're forced to resort to such drastic hyperboles to make their point that you're wondering if it's really a hyperbole at all or if it's fallen over into the realm of blatant lie. And then I have to ask myself, is this person so stupid or are they just trying to get people riled up. In the end I always decide it doesn't matter and I just light heartedly mock them for my own entertainment.

That is what happened here.

Oh and dfdm, for you love

---

---

Trying to get the issue into these black and white portraits just shows how you're completely ignorant. Go back like 20 pages, you'll see that I made about 2 or 3 serious comments, then it was quickly derailed by some feminists who just said things like "jesus christ". Maybe if we could back pedal past the crap that everyone in this thread has been spewing for the past 2 days, which all boils down to "if that's true, then explain my feelings" then we can talk about who doesn't have any fucking argument. What a waste of time, arguing with someone if they have no desire to even engage you.

I agree it's a waste of time. I have no interest in searching back several pages to see whatever you said. I saw the bullshit that you've posted recently. If you want someone to want to have a discussion with you, then you need to first offer up something worth discussing