Creation/evolution3

[FatAndFaithless]

@Drich, as I am remembing the whole story of Exodus, how can you take that literally and have any love for God? God hardens the heart of Pharaoh, so he can punish Egypt with plagues - culminating in God's Angel killing every firstborn in Egypt ... even animals?

There are numerous stories in the Bible where God seems to be a very evil being. You can't take these stories literally and still love such a God. You might worship this God out of fear, but you could not love it.

So if you want to continue believing in God, then you need to stop taking the Bible literally - just like Roxy suggested in an early post.

You're not going to get very far trying to discuss morality with Drich (especially the morality of God). This guy has openly said before that slavery is okay and that someone getting cancer is a blessing.

[Norman Humann]

The problem with atheist? You all tend to want the easy answers in life. The intelectually lazy way out. You seek the answers that allow your o keep your perspective, and makes the 'issue' (whatever it is) someone else's problem.

Bolding mine.

The irony. It's too much.

You're the one who believes an outdated, incosistent book without question or evidence, yet we are intelectually lazy? Can you give us a reason why you would think so?

[h4ym4n]

Interesting story. Wasn't god itself then.


You're a big scripture guy.

What does scripture say about mediums, futune tellers, psychics, sorcerers, charmers, necromancers?

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Define God.
If it includes the Holy Spirit then an arguement can be made that angels are apart of the Holy Spirit.

Second if a messenger carries the word of God then He speaks with the authority of God whomever that messenger maybe.

Lastly he did not tell me he was a fortune teller/psychic. Read it again. He said I'm what YOU might call... Meaning, if one has the option in the identification of this being. He never identified himself as anything. His work and words as they have come true over the years has identified him.

Your story said he was telling you past and future events. Did he show you evidence he was an angel?

Lastly he did not tell me he was a fortune teller/psychic. Read it again. He said I'm what YOU might call...

Why didn't he say he was an angel? You would have believed him if he did wouldn't you?

One more thing do you have a dollar or two" and looked at the pocket where I separated my money, Then he said, "cause you know how we can never be happy with what has already been given to us.." He Told me God bless, I did a quick u-turn and He was gone... just as quickly as he appeared.

Why does an angel need money?

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[Cyberman]

Angels run on the same principles as Nigerian princes.

[Drich]

I'm confused by what you mean by "known/knowable events". I'm guessing you mean "non-miraculous events"?

yes non miraculous.

I agree that according the story, God was trying to create a generation of Israelites who trusted God, so they could be the nation that God promised Abraham, follow God's law, blah blah blah. So making them depend on miraculous food and water was part of God's plan.

The fastest way through to a man's heart is through his stomach.. and even then it took 40 years.

If you're willing to believe in manna, then I suppose it's not such a stretch to believe that the Israelites fastidiously recycled all their waste or that people eating manna had no need to defecate, or that there was no trash because nothing wore out, or whatever.

This is the point or position Tonus takes... Again when he does I point to the over 60 CITIES found in the desert who had have had tens of millions over the course of hundreds if not thousands of years live and work in them and still NONE of the stuff you mentioned above has been found for them. Only their stone foundations. Why?!?! Two reasons. The Jews would have taken all their stuff with them into the promise land and everything you mentioned is indeed biodegradeable. This means of the course of 4000 years all the stuff you mention rots away. That is why none of the stuff can be found for the hundred year old cities nor the 40 year old camping trip.

We might also believe that God created the universe 6000 years ago in such a way that it appeared to have been created by a big bang 13 billion years ago.

Why would we need do that, when their isn't a time line between the end of creation and the fall of man?
This could mean God created the garden in the seven day cycle and simply perserved it for the bazillions of years that evolution and the rock guys will ultimatly need to cover their stories.

One problem with miracles is that God supposedly created the laws of nature (gravity, etc.) It seems to me that God would not break those laws willy-nilly to impress a group of people so that they could go and commit genocide in the promised land. Wouldn't it make more sense for God to use his miraculous power to make the indigenous peoples of the promised land welcome the Israelites as God's chosen people?

I say that All the time kudoes for you!
"God is the creator of the Known universe which means He has put all the different laws of 'nature' into place. So why would he need to circumvent those laws each and every time He wanted to do something? Wouldn't an all knowing all powerful God simply create a system the would 'naturally' work with his will?"

The answer here comes in the stated reason for miricals/Signs and wonders to begin with. Christ said He did the things He did in the way that He did them so that 'we' would know He was God.

God sustained these people for 40 years with signs and wonders... Who in the first or second generation doubted who God was? What he did their sustained the jews throught the highs and lows of their existance. Centuries went by and they had no structure no goverment of their own and yet they kept their heritage alive because of what was done in the 40 span.

[Norman Humann]

Hey Drich, there's that little question I asked you. I know you're technically not obligated to, but could you answer it? Thanks a bunch.

[dyresand]

The bible has no value in this day and age to tell the truth or even hold up to simple logic. The bible and its stories and philosophy are all worthless considering how much more intelligent we are as a species yet the majority cling to it like it is important and the truth of the world when it is clearly not.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Seeking knoweledge for yourself, 4000 years ago.. So do you think a lot of this modern endeavor was the goal of indivisual people then?

Aside from the obvious point that you didn't actually address my point, but rather, erected a strawman to avoid discussing the Bible's obvious hatred and punishment of education and nonconformity -- aside from that -- do you really think that simply because you're content to remain ignorant, that they were as well?

Also, "artical". And "intelectually". I'd like to buy an "L", Pat. Irony, indeed.

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And

You've lost your right to introduce any more new material into this conversation till you provide an accurate synopsis of my position.

By this guideline, you should be permabanned.

Lying dumbfuck.

[Drich]

@Drich, as I am remembing the whole story of Exodus, how can you take that literally and have any love for God? God hardens the heart of Pharaoh, so he can punish Egypt with plagues - culminating in God's Angel killing every firstborn in Egypt ... even animals?

So?

What if God harden the hearts of the members of ISIS from this point on? What would change?

Just because God hardened pharroah's heart did not mean Pharroah loved the jews.
Ender's Game is a recent Harrison Ford Movie in it is a great quote that sums up what happened here:

Colonel Graff: Tell me why you kept on kicking him. You had already won.

Ender Wiggin: Knocking him down won the first fight. I wanted to win all the next ones, too. So they'd leave me alone.

After the 10 plagues and the standoff at the Red sea 'Pharroah left them alone.'

There are numerous stories in the Bible where God seems to be a very evil being. You can't take these stories literally and still love such a God. You might worship this God out of fear, but you could not love it.

Why not?

There is only an issue if I suppose that 'my morality' is indeed greater than God. if I am in place to judge God then I become the authority and therefore can not love or worship Him as my Authority.

What I have learned is our acts, in of themselves hold no righteous/moral value. It's what God says about them that makes them right or wrong.

Man has a tendency to give value to the deeds themselves. Why? so that they can later be maniuplated to justify his wants.. In truth there is nothing in the bible that has been attributed to God that man himself hasn't done for some 'justifiable' reason.

So if you want to continue believing in God, then you need to stop taking the Bible literally - just like Roxy suggested in an early post.

And, what if I know I can have God's full backing and support if I continue that path that I'm on? Why would I want to change?

Like with the Jews I have spent 40 years in the desert (tough times) and I have been shown the promise land. why would I want to abandon my post just before I got to step in?

Especially after all the crazy stuff I have witnessed and been apart of.

[Norman Humann]

Really? No? It's just going to be another empty assertion from you?

Why am I surprised?