Evidence God Exists

[Violet]

So? I've never denied evolution. It doesn't matter how we arrived at our intelligence, or the time it took. What's important is that God influenced the process.

And your evidence for this claim is....?????

"God's" influence would be indistinguishable from the process... considering that he 'created' it. Hence it looks exactly as if it was created by "God"... and equally it looks exactly as though it were an entirely natural product. The two claims would apparently bring the same results... only whence the results originated is changed.

Hence if we are assuming that there is a "God" that created the process... don't you think it's a little redundant to mention it again? After all... if "God" created everything (including us)... then the "process" of these things is exactly as he created it. Hence at the above bold: What is important rather... is that "God" created the process... not that he influenced it as would be necessitated by his first having created it.

If he did not create the process... then why call him "God"? If he did create the process... then why state something so redundant as "he influenced it"?

[tavarish]

Another round? Fine, let's go.

What the hell are you talking about? Cells ARE organisms.

I never said they weren't. Cells are organisms, and within their structure they are considered species of cells and organisms. But they are not species of animals. You know this is what I mean, but are nitpicking. Plants are also species, but you know darn well that's not what I'm talking about.

You ignore refutation after refutation...

Nothing has been refuted. There's been a lot of tangent side arguments, but the topic has hardly been directly addressed, so how can anything be refuted? You have ignored many of my points as well. Sorry but I haven't found any of your arguments convincing. We're at an atheists' website, so of course you're going to find plenty of support for your ideas. But in the real world no one would deny we have dominion over animals. I'm not going to change my mind because you've decided to put out sci-fi dribble about organisms that can take us over.

You want to stick to the subject?

Why are cheetahs the only species, out of millions of species, that can run 60mph?

Why are narwhals the only species, out of millions of species, that have a tooth that is 10feet long?

Why are Yeti crabs the only species, out of millions of species, that have hair on their claws?

Why are thorny devils the only species, out of millions of species, that have the ability to absorb water through its skin as a primary source of nourishment?

First of all, a lot of the traits you've provided are not quite unique, as a lot of these species can be divided into subspecies which have the same traits. Plus completely different species have similar or approaching traits. An example of this is the pronghorn antelope, which can run up to 61 mph. Wildebeests can run up to 50mph. No animal intelligence approaches human intelligence. Of course this is a point you'll probably ignore down the line, and then claim I ignore your points.

But even if these traits were unique, they pale in comparison to human intelligence because they do not provide their species the ability to conquer the world, as humans have with their intelligence. This point is relevant to this discussion, and it's another point you have ignored. Oh yes, you've denied over and over that we have dominance.

I'll give you a hint. It had everything to do with adaptations to their environment. It's the same reason we have "intelligence". A quick look at an evolutionary chart would clear some things up for you, methinks.

Again, this doesn't explain how art, math and science are a result of adapting to our environment. Another point you've ignored.

I linked you to an article in which biologists and philosophers explain the development or art through evolutionary means. You ignored that example and went on your way.

I provided you lots of examples of intelligence in animals. (By the way, there are plenty of animals with ALL of the criteria I listed, humpback whales, dolphins, certain primates come to mind). You ignore them and went on your way.

I directly addressed your argument. If you haven't found my arguments convincing, I suggest you re-read the argument and analyze your own text and see where it fails.

You're repeatedly told that humans don't have ultimate dominance, using micro-organisms as an example, in addition to being shown that humans cannot survive in many environments that certain animals can. It is SOLELY dependent on the environment. Our progress on Earth was because of it. What you're proposing is AT BEST an argument from personal incredulity, saying "Because humans seem to be so much more intellectually advanced, it must have been by God". You weigh no other options and ignore the points that are shoved in your face.

You said cells and organisms (the same thing, by the way) aren't species, and I illustrated to you that they are. Perhaps you should word yourself a bit better.

Here's a definition of dominant:

1 a : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others <the dominant culture> b : very important, powerful, or successful <a dominant theme> <a dominant industry>

We have the capability to understand the world around us in a unique way, but in no way to we control or command all others. We cannot survive in environments in which certain forms of bacteria reside. We cannot survive in considerably hot, cold, or dry climates. We cannot survive deep underwater, where pressures are immense. We cannot survive at high altitudes, where air density is low. Other animals, suited for those environments, CAN.

We are perfectly suited for our environment. It's easy to see how you'd think we have dominion over it, in the same sense that a lion may regard himself to be the the top of the food chain and have no rival.

[Thor]

Since dinosaurs were the dominant creatures on the planet for millions of years, I have to wonder if they would have considered themselves to have been "divinely created". If dinosaurs could have conceived of a deity, I imagine they would have looked around and assumed that some higher power created this planet just for them! After all, the evidence is obvious! They were big, powerful and no other creature could stop them. Maybe the dinosaurs would have believed that "god" was an invisible dinosaur who lived in the sky and watched over them!

Why not? Makes just as much sense as what the faithful believe.

[Minimalist]

Since dinosaurs were the dominant creatures on the planet for millions of years, I have to wonder if they would have considered themselves to have been "divinely created". If dinosaurs could have conceived of a deity, I imagine they would have looked around and assumed that some higher power created this planet just for them! After all, the evidence is obvious! They were big, powerful and no other creature could stop them. Maybe the dinosaurs would have believed that "god" was an invisible dinosaur who lived in the sky and watched over them!

Why not? Makes just as much sense as what the faithful believe.

"If triangles had a god, he would have three sides."
-- Montesquieu

[tavarish]

Here's a good video explaining the development of mankind's knowledge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tysZObbs4Yo

[Laurens]

Here's a good video explaining the development of mankind's knowledge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tysZObbs4Yo

I love that series!

[Watson]

Since dinosaurs were the dominant creatures on the planet for millions of years, I have to wonder if they would have considered themselves to have been "divinely created". If dinosaurs could have conceived of a deity, I imagine they would have looked around and assumed that some higher power created this planet just for them! After all, the evidence is obvious! They were big, powerful and no other creature could stop them. Maybe the dinosaurs would have believed that "god" was an invisible dinosaur who lived in the sky and watched over them!

Why not? Makes just as much sense as what the faithful believe.

I don't think dinosaurs were self-aware...

[Thor]

Since dinosaurs were the dominant creatures on the planet for millions of years, I have to wonder if they would have considered themselves to have been "divinely created". If dinosaurs could have conceived of a deity, I imagine they would have looked around and assumed that some higher power created this planet just for them! After all, the evidence is obvious! They were big, powerful and no other creature could stop them. Maybe the dinosaurs would have believed that "god" was an invisible dinosaur who lived in the sky and watched over them!

Why not? Makes just as much sense as what the faithful believe.

I don't think dinosaurs were self-aware...

Not even Barney? Or even Cecil? (Or was it Beanie? I could never keep those two straight.)

[Joe Bloe]

I've arrived here at a late stage in the debate, but I've read all of your posts and collected most of the evidence you have provided for god's existence:

* Humans are the only species, out of millions of species, which have evolved into an intelligent life
* the fact is that no other species have been able to develop science, literature, art, music and intelligent thought process as humans have. Isn’t this evidence that God exists?
* Yes it is
No, that is not evidence for god's existence. All you have said is that Man is the only intelligent species on earth and then simply added the statement, "therefore god exists". It's like saying that Kangaroos live in Australia "therefore the Tooth Fairy exists".

* For one thing it corroborates what’s written in the bible
The bible cannot be used for evidence of God's existence. I know that sounds tough, but that's the way it is.

* I’m sure everyone here is smart enough to understand the difference between animal intelligence and human intelligence. You may find an intelligent trait in one species, and another trait in another species. But you won’t find one single species with all the intelligent traits that humans possess.
Again, that is not evidence for god. All you are saying is man's intelligence is different from animal intelligence and there is no reason to add the final "therefore god exists".

* I claim that God meant for only humans to bear this kind of intelligence.
Here you are assuming God's existence - the very thing that you are trying to prove!

* Basically what you're saying is that our intelligence is a survival tool that we developed through evolution. So now explain what the development of art, science, entertainment, etc. has to do with survival. From an evolutionary standpoint, why are those needed for the preservation of our species?
Evolutionary changes do not occur with a purpose. The changes occur and the organisms deal with it as best they can. In today's modern society there are many artists and entertainers who would die of starvation if they had to live off the land, but instead they sell their talent to members of the public and live a life of luxury - that's a survival tool if if ever there was one.

* Why are humans the only species, out of millions of species, who developed sapient intelligence?
I'm guessing the question is rhetorical, but I'm also guessing you are implying that "we have sapient intelligence because god gave us sapient intelligence" - and once again you assume the very thing you are trying to prove.

* I'm obviously dealing with very young people here, because their arguments remind me a little bit of kindergarten.
I know you weren't referring to me because I wasn't here at the time, but just so you know: I'm 64.



I realise that you are attempting to prove the existence of the Christian God, but just for the sake of clarity, could you describe it for me - otherwise we won't know what we are talking about. In discussions with other Christians I have been told that God is ineffable and beyond the understanding of mere human minds - yet they insist they know and understand god! I can't figure out how they do that. Perhaps your version of god is not ineffable.

[Minimalist]

You may be late, Joe, but you have essentially nailed it.