Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:08 am
You are asserting without proof all this non-material stuff. I don't know what else I can really say. I'll check in again another time.
Posts: 326
Threads: 9
Joined: September 29, 2013
Reputation:
7
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:13 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 9:14 am by Rational AKD.)
(February 2, 2015 at 9:06 am)robvalue Wrote: I really can't. I have no idea if this is an internal illusion of my brain or what it is. No one understands conciousness yet, or if it is in any way real. Maybe one day. But solipsism seems impenetrable. I certainly have no evidence of anyone else's consciousness
Just asserting what it is and what it means is an argument from ignorance, in my opinion. you can't directly see what's behind consciousness but that does not mean you can't see you are conscious. the facts as follows:
1. you are conscious and you cannot doubt this because doubting requires consciousness.
2. it is possible for you to exist a world where everything is mental (like your dreams)
3. it is not possible for you to exist in a world without consciousness (as you are conscious).
4. therefore it is not necessary to postulate physical substances to explain our experience.
(February 2, 2015 at 9:08 am)robvalue Wrote: You are asserting without proof all this non-material stuff. I don't know what else I can really say. I'll check in again another time. I did say in the OP this wasn't a proof right? the only thing i'm proving is what position is more reasonable according to Occam's razor and Cartesian Skepticism.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo
Posts: 67206
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:15 am
Those aren't facts at all AKD - those are your assertions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:15 am
This psychobabble is like a fog for my eyeballs.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:17 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 9:18 am by robvalue.)
OK. Well I think your scenario requires way more assumptions than the current scientific models. That's just my opinion. To me you appear to be filling in the blanks in our knowledge with assertions. But it's still a bit more convincing than almost every other non-physical drivel I have read on the forum.
Posts: 67206
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:18 am
I'm not so sure there are gaps to fill in...AKD is asserting those gaps -in order to have someplace to squeeze in further assertions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:21 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 9:21 am by robvalue.)
Well yes, that too  I mainly meant the understanding of conciousness, whether it is a dualistic entity somewhere or just an illusion or whatever. As far as I know, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's, but what evidence there is (or isn't) seems to point towards conciousness being an illusion, to me at least. I'm far from an expert so feel free to fill my gaps 
Posts: 18510
Threads: 129
Joined: January 19, 2014
Reputation:
91
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:25 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 9:27 am by Alex K.)
(February 2, 2015 at 9:21 am)robvalue Wrote: Well yes, that too I mainly meant the understanding of conciousness, whether it is a dualistic entity somewhere or just an illusion or whatever. As far as I know, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's, but what evidence there is (or isn't) seems to point towards conciousness being an illusion, to me at least. I'm far from an expert so feel free to fill my gaps
You see, my problem here is - what's the difference between consciousness being an illusion or not being an illusion?
Also, if consciousness is an illusion, it's that illusion which we call consciousness in the first place, and hence "consciousness is an illusion" is redundant. It is what it is. We have
nothing to compare it to that would allow us to identify an illusion, like a maiden being sawed in two, and an illusion of a maiden being sawed in two.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
Posts: 67206
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:25 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 9:27 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 2, 2015 at 9:21 am)robvalue Wrote: Well yes, that too I mainly meant the understanding of conciousness, whether it is a dualistic entity somewhere or just an illusion or whatever. As far as I know, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's, the field isn't quite -that- open. If, for example, I guessed "head smurfs"........
Quote:but what evidence there is (or isn't) seems to point towards conciousness being an illusion, to me at least.
In the same way that a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat is an illusion (speaking of, the op seems to think that we can;t doubt our conscious experience......so I guess he must think there are actually bottomless hats full of rabbits in the world). Not that it;s unreal, or that nothing has actually happened - simply that what seems to be happening isn;t always the best description of what -is- happening, sure. -Just wanted to make sure we were onboard before I agreed..lol, some people take "illusion" to mean something unreal to the point of being a non-thing, a non-event.
Quote: I'm far from an expert so feel free to fill my gaps
Pretty sure we're all, on this forum, just passionate hobbyists on this particular subject.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 326
Threads: 9
Joined: September 29, 2013
Reputation:
7
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
February 2, 2015 at 9:25 am
(February 2, 2015 at 9:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: Those aren't facts at all AKD - those are your assertions. exactly which one of those are merely asserted and not proven?
1. you are conscious and you cannot doubt this because doubting requires consciousness.
this is Cartesian Skepticism as proven by René Descartes. this is not disputed among philosophers.
2. it is possible for you to exist a world where everything is mental (like your dreams)
it is not disputed that your dreams do not have material objects yet appear to be material. what's your objection with this?
3. it is not possible for you to exist in a world without consciousness (as you are conscious).
you are a conscious being. it should be evident that you cannot exist in a would without consciousness.
4. therefore it is not necessary to postulate physical substances to explain our experience
follows from the premises. what exactly is not proven here?
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo
|
