Two babies discussion.

[KevinM1]

A belief in god has also led to things like witch trials, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, and the Lord's Resistance Army, to say nothing of it being used as a justification for things like slavery and virulent homophobia.

Regarding your god detector, there are 40,000 Christian sects alone. Religions across the globe range from monotheistic beliefs, to paganism, to nature worship, to reincarnation, and many combination thereof. Moreover, atheism and agnosticism is rapidly growing in first world countries. Furthermore, the argument that Christianity of some flavor must be the correct choice due to its popularity is utterly fallacious. For one, that's like saying Taylor Swift topped sales charts last year because of the quality of her music. It also ignores the history of how Christianity spread, which was often at the end of a sword or gun.

Finally, a lack of evidence is not evidence itself. That we 'don't know how to create matter from nothing or understand infinity' doesn't mean that lack of ability/understanding points to god. All you're doing here is regurgitating the God of the Gaps fallacy.

[Esquilax]

In relationship to knowing everything about the universe, I'd say if the ancients knew 1%, we know 1.1%.

Don't knock the 0.1%, then; on your scale, that's still quite a lot of information. And it comes with a set of formal logical rules and the scientific method, which only accelerated our ability to gain more knowledge.

The fact that people don't believe the same thing about God is evidence that there really is a "god sense". If we all believed the same thing, you could reason that we were all indoctrinated to believe in a god.

Not believing in the same thing is proof of god, but if everyone believed in the same god, you'd be arguing that such a unified belief could only come from something objectively real. Stop pretending, Lek: we all know you're going to twist this to get to the god conclusion no matter what anyone says.

As to indoctrination, no, I wouldn't claim that. Not unless there was actual evidence that that were the case. See, I need things to be justified, before I say them.

How do know that there is "endless waste" in nature? We don't know the purpose of everything in nature. We haven't discovered everything about nature.

So in the absence of that knowledge, you're just going to assume that everything in nature has a purpose, presumably because it leads to the conclusion you want to be true?

[Lek]

A belief in god has also led to things like witch trials, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, and the Lord's Resistance Army, to say nothing of it being used as a justification for things like slavery and virulent homophobia.

People have used almost any excuse to do evil. That doesn't nullify the enormous good that has been done by people because they worship God or a god. If people have done so much good in the name of God, you can't say that belief in God is an evil thing, especially when we are taught to love our neighbor.

Regarding your god detector, there are 40,000 Christian sects alone. Religions across the globe range from monotheistic beliefs, to paganism, to nature worship, to reincarnation, and many combination thereof. Moreover, atheism and agnosticism is rapidly growing in first world countries. Furthermore, the argument that Christianity of some flavor must be the correct choice due to its popularity is utterly fallacious. For one, that's like saying Taylor Swift topped sales charts last year because of the quality of her music. It also ignores the history of how Christianity spread, which was often at the end of a sword or gun.

I'll have to agree with you about Taylor Swift.

Finally, a lack of evidence is not evidence itself. That we 'don't know how to create matter from nothing or understand infinity' doesn't mean that lack of ability/understanding points to god. All you're doing here is regurgitating the God of the Gaps fallacy.

I don't think it proves that there is a God in a scientific way, but I think it is evidence that there is something beyond the natural. Since science is unable to study the supernatural, I can't use science to prove to you that there is a God. So if you're relying on science to decide if God exists or not, I agree that you'll never find him. But, like I've said before, you're really limiting yourselves. In fact, I believe you're outsmarting yourselves.

[KevinM1]

A belief in god has also led to things like witch trials, the Inquisition, abortion clinic bombings, and the Lord's Resistance Army, to say nothing of it being used as a justification for things like slavery and virulent homophobia.

People have used almost any excuse to do evil. That doesn't nullify the enormous good that has been done by people because they worship God or a god. If people have done so much good in the name of God, you can't say that belief in God is an evil thing, especially when we are taught to love our neighbor.

I have never said that the belief in a god, in and of itself, is evil. Just that it has directly led to evil actions, actions that cannot be wiped away by the good that belief has also directly led to.

Keep in mind that a lot of the negative things theists like to hang on atheists, like Soviet Russia's treatment of Christians, weren't actually done in the name of atheism. They were done as a means of control for other ends.

I see assertions like yours - "belief in a god has made people do a lot of good in the world" - and my immediate reaction is, "So what?" Belief in a god is not necessary in order to do good. Bill Gates would be a great example of that, as would many other atheist individuals and groups who do their part with little to no fanfare. And, it also begs the question "Would the people who did good work in god's name not do that if they didn't believe it was expected of them by the ultimate authority figure?"

So, the assertion, in my mind, holds little value. It's nice that good things were done, but the same belief has also caused a lot of damage, and evidence shows that the belief isn't actually necessary for people to actually help their fellow man. Theists don't hold the monopoly on empathy.

Finally, a lack of evidence is not evidence itself. That we 'don't know how to create matter from nothing or understand infinity' doesn't mean that lack of ability/understanding points to god. All you're doing here is regurgitating the God of the Gaps fallacy.

I don't think it proves that there is a God in a scientific way, but I think it is evidence that there is something beyond the natural. Since science is unable to study the supernatural, I can't use science to prove to you that there is a God. So if you're relying on science to decide if God exists or not, I agree that you'll never find him. But, like I've said before, you're really limiting yourselves. In fact, I believe you're outsmarting yourselves.

I don't see it as evidence for the supernatural at all. Again, a lack of evidence isn't evidence of anything. All it is is a lack of evidence. "I don't know" is a completely reasonable answer because it's truthful and doesn't presuppose anything, one way or the other.

Here's the thing: there could be a god. No one will truly know until they're dead. But there's no credible evidence pointing to the existence of one. And the existence of current mysteries doesn't necessarily point to the divine. So, why spend time believing that it does, in fact, exist? Why get worked up in a lather based on stories dating back to the Iron Age and earlier?

[Bad Wolf]

People have used almost any excuse to do evil. That doesn't nullify the enormous good that has been done by people because they worship God or a god. If people have done so much good in the name of God, you can't say that belief in God is an evil thing, especially when we are taught to love our neighbor.

Bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things no matter their religious views. But religion is the only thing that can make a good person do bad things while believing they are good.

P.S. If the only reason a person does a good thing is because they are expecting a reward or preventing a punishment, then they aren't really a good person.

[Esquilax]

People have used almost any excuse to do evil. That doesn't nullify the enormous good that has been done by people because they worship God or a god. If people have done so much good in the name of God, you can't say that belief in God is an evil thing, especially when we are taught to love our neighbor.

Do you ever question the honesty of accepting something as evidence when the conclusion agrees with what you believe, while dismissing the same kind of evidence the moment it disagrees?

[Lek]

Bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things no matter their religious views. But religion is the only thing that can make a good person do bad things while believing they are good.

Not so. I think most communists thought they were doing good by killing people of faith. People have also done horrible things in the name of nationalism. Many have killed in the in the name of family disputes. Christ never advocated murdering in his name.

P.S. If the only reason a person does a good thing is because they are expecting a reward or preventing a punishment, then they aren't really a good person.

I agree. But the result is the same. Many are doing good things simply because that is what they think God wants them to do. Many people lives self-serving lives and then, after conversion, become cheerful givers to society.

---

Do you ever question the honesty of accepting something as evidence when the conclusion agrees with what you believe, while dismissing the same kind of evidence the moment it disagrees?

No Esquilax. In fact, believe it or not, I have changed my mind on a number of issues since joining this forum.

[Esquilax]

No Esquilax. In fact, believe it or not, I have changed my mind on a number of issues since joining this forum.

So, you don't question it? Because, to be clear, it's literally what you're doing, when you accept the good christianity does as representative, but dismiss the bad out of hand, based on no argument that couldn't also be applied to the good.

You're taking seriously what you want to believe, but asserting that what you don't want to believe doesn't count. I don't care if you've changed your mind on every other issue you've ever discussed here, that doesn't make this particular argument any more honest.

[Ravenshire]

Not so. I think most communists thought they were doing good by killing people of faith.

You just keep exposing your ignorance on this particular point. You can keep on believing what you choose or you can study these supposed atheist death cults you keep throwing out and relieve your own ignorance. Your choice. Just, please, don't expect anyone here to be doing your research for you and spoon feeding you the results.

[Bad Wolf]

Not so. I think most communists thought they were doing good by killing people of faith. People have also done horrible things in the name of nationalism.

Ideologies and religions are essentially the same things. Telling you exatcly what to think.

Many have killed in the in the name of family disputes. Christ never advocated murdering in his name.

Well god has, is jesus and god the same thing in your eyes?

I agree. But the result is the same. Many are doing good things simply because that is what they think God wants them to do. Many people lives self-serving lives and then, after conversion, become cheerful givers to society.

Really? Where are these facts coming from? Because I do good things and give to society without the 'carrot' of reward or the 'stick' of punishment.