California Proposition 8

[Daystar]

How, though, is your view of religions the same as your view of supernatural? They are both bullshit? If so I could go halfway with you on that. Religion can easily be seen as that, but how can you base an opinion on something you don't know (supernatural) unless it is based upon ignorance and some undisclosed political and or social agenda?

I base my opinion on what I have observed (obviously very limited) and what others have tested and shown (still limited but the limits are being continually pushed back). That opinion is that there is nothing supernatural at all (and belief in a god(s) is belief in a supernatural being).
A word other than "atheist" would be preferable since the "theist" part is explicitly "belief in a god", but that is the one we seem to have. It is not surprising really since disbelief in the "big" supernatural element in one's life (or other's lives) is usually the first major step towards non-belief in all supernatural things.

As I've said before, I am taking what others say on "faith" (with no religious overtones intended, I just accept what they say) since I have not personally done most of the experiments to show various things that are not immediately obvious (eg: the fact the Earth is spherical-ish, as far as I can tell it is flat, it always looks flat to me (with a few bumps)).

However, I more easily accept new "theories" that fit in with my current world view (as does everyone), *but* different ideas are accepted and taken as "true" if they can provide evidence that the new idea is a better description of what is observed (not necessarily observed by me I should point out).

I don't know why this is hard for Daystar, who claims to be a former atheist. He should know we view belief in God the same as belief in "step on a crack, break your mother's back." He should know we view those who believe in God the same as we view those who believe in "step on a crack, break your mother's back." He should know we view organized religion and the laws it gets passed against abortion, gay marriage, sale of alcohol on Sunday, etc. the same as we view a group of superstitious folks getting a law passed making it illegal to step on a crack, and prosecuting the only child of someone whose back breaks under a "res ipsa loquitur" argument that they must have stepped on a crack. I think he's being disingenuous.

That is the funny part, I think of the militant Atheist as disingenuous. I was raised a real Atheist. We may have matured beyond placing any meaning on "step on a crack ... " but we didn't go around taunting or belittling those who hadn't gotten to that place yet. I would say that the only thing we did have in common with the militant atheist (though I only knew there was such a thing years later) is that we didn’t like the idea that religious people thought of themselves as morally superior or at least in a position to dictate that morality upon us. Though, honestly, looking back I can’t recall anyone ever having actually done that - it was just a feeling you had, like a poor man seeing a rich man.

[leo-rcc]

Now that is an NTS

[infidel666]

NTS = No True Scotsman?

So which is it that Daystar is saying is "no true scotsman?" Is it the "militant ateist" is not a true atheist like Daystar was? Or is it that the Theocrats aren't the real Theists, like Daystar is now? Or ist it that Daystar is not a typical theist, and his attempts to defend religion aren't applicable to defending the real theists, becasue it is actually Daystar who is not the true scotsman?

[leo-rcc]

Yes, Yes, No and No.

[Tiberius]

Anyone who says "I was raised a real atheist" is firstly making a No True Scotsman argument, and secondly being very insulting to anyone who is actually an atheist.

It strikes me as very easy to be a real atheist anyway. You just have to answer "no" to the question "Do you believe in gods?"

[Daystar]

Anyone who says "I was raised a real atheist" is firstly making a No True Scotsman argument, and secondly being very insulting to anyone who is actually an atheist.

It strikes me as very easy to be a real atheist anyway. You just have to answer "no" to the question "Do you believe in gods?"

I have an odd sense of humour and there is some truth behind that. I tend to think that the militant Atheists have a hidden agenda that they themselves are not fully aware of.

[infidel666]

Daystar's minions?

[Daystar]

Daystar's minions?

Who ... What?

[infidel666]

I tend to think that the militant Atheists have a hidden agenda that they themselves are not fully aware of.

unwitting minions of satan=lucifer=daystar

[chatpilot]

I consider myself a die hard atheist but that is because I am pretty sure of my position that god does not exist.Based on all of the evidence that I have come across on my own and my own experiences in the ministry,I am convinced that god does not exist sufficient enough to make the issue an open and shut case for me.