Here's A Dilemma

[robvalue]

My opinion is that employers have the right to tell their employees not to display overtly religious stuff. (Of course this is a bit of a grey area.)

After that, I think whether it's religious or not, it should be the item itself that should be evaluated. I don't think something should be permitted because it's religious. If you allow that, then I can invent my own religion, involving wearing whatever stupid crap clothes I like, and you've got to accept that too. Why should longer standing religions get favoritism over ones I just made up?

So in this case, as the head scarf can probably not be considered overtly religious, then it should just be a case of whether it meets the dress code for the job. If not, take it off or get another job. If it's OK in the dress code, then fine.

[pocaracas]

Why should longer standing religions get favoritism over ones I just made up?

Because it's not a religion if you make it up.


Oh, wait...

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I agree that the practice is discriminatory, but it may not be illegal. The business would have to prove that lifting the discriminatory practice would undermine the business operation; something I think they'll have a hard time doing.

Take for instance The Rockettes. In addition to their strict height requirements, I am sure they would have no problem legally enforcing a ban on religious headgear due to the nature of their business.

I hope SCOTUS sides with Abercrombie and Fitch. The hijab is not required by Islam. It is worn by some as a symbol of modesty and privacy. I don't understand how a woman that wears the hijab reconciles the importance of modesty with selling young women short skirts, tight fitting jeans, revealing tops, etc. Do we then take the next step and force retailers to accommodate modesty warriors by having someone else assist and check-out customers purchasing clothing that the worker finds objectionable in accordance with self imposed modesty standards?

This exact dilemma has happened in the UK with muslim pharmacists refusing to dispense contraceptive pills to women (I believe it was the MAP).

I'll dig out the story. It raises the issue of whether someone's personal religious convictiona have a right to superceed one's job description and contract, which of course they shouldn't.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3...acist.html

There's been a discussion about the idea of opt-outs for pharmacists who believe dispensing could go against their personal beliefs. Note this is not medical ethical dilemmas, this is purely about fantasy make believe religious beliefs. I'm out of te loop on the conversation now so i don't know the outcome, but I would argue using nebulous religious beliefs as an exclusion clause in a pharmacist's contract is 100% unethical

[robvalue]

Yeah, I remember that.

Again, this is crap. We all have parts of our job we don't like (well, when I used to have one) so I can just invent a religion to get me out of something I don't want to do.

[Mudhammam]

BASEBALL IS MY RELIGION! I HAVE TO WEAR MY RED SOX HAT TO WORK!



(I don't like baseball all that much by the way, and my team isn't really the Red Sox. Just thought I should mention that).

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Yeah, I remember that.

Again, this is crap. We all have parts of our job we don't like (well, when I used to have one) so I can just invent a religion to get me out of something I don't want to do.

Genuine ethical dilemmas (such as the safety of a drug, or the safety of the patient in relation to taking a drug) are reasons not to dispense. 'Because mohammed had sex with a 9 year old and I don't like Bacon' is not a reason.

[robvalue]

That's right, and in those cases you can have a sensible discussion and raise your concerns. You cannot however have a sensible discussion about arbitrary bullshit.

When I worked in pensions I had ethical dilemmas, sometimes my work was concerning a company I had big problems with for one reason or another. But sadly, each job is going to have things you really don't want to do. If I complained about this, I wouldn't have got any support, nor should I get any. It was my job to do it, and my personal feelings about the company are irrelevant. (I'm not saying I knew secret information or something, just that I considered them a bad company). So if instead I pipe up about my religion, saying I can't do this pension paperwork because blah blah on a Friday can't write the letter g while wearing one shoe, why should I suddenly be given special treatment?

Religious freedom, within the confines of the laws and regulations that everyone is expected to follow. Otherwise you have anarchy! And no one wants to see that just yet.

[FreeTony]

I was having a chat with a friend recently about a similar topic. She is an employment lawyer, and I was asking about the rights of employees to express their religious views about homosexuality. Essentially she said that in these cases the courts will rule on the side of the gay party, but that there are two conflicting arguments going on and it is only really precedent that means that rulings favour the non-religious party. Now this is the UK where the overall attitude of the population would be to favour that side anyway.


Apparently the more common cases involve people out there stupid enough to add muslim colleagues as friends on facebook, then put up a load of stuff about wanting to kill Muslims.

[Losty]

Hooters' girls in hijabs sounds kinky. I like it.

I actually think some women look sexy in hijab

[Dystopia]

After thinking a while I'm inclined to agree with the company. After all marketing is important and what workers wear to work can be useful for promoting clothing items. A friend of mine works in a trendy (for young people) clothes shop and they have to wear clothes from the shop to work (luckily they can keep them and they get to choose form a variety of in-fashion items, usually jeans, t shirts, shirts, nothing too ugly). I simply don't want to go down the path of not hiring people based on headscarfs. In this case I can accept that it's a reasonable decision, and I know American laws are different from the ones in my country.

Nestor, it was a good talk - Ultimately there's two sides in the debate of religious freedom V. workplace rules and we can only hope that each case is settled depending on the evidence and the seriousness of the rights being used.

Losty, I totally think women look good in hijabs. No I don't like Islam, but I've always liked women slightly covered because it makes me not see what I wish to see, so basically I get more curious to see what's underneath.