Here's A Dilemma

[Losty]

"Losty, I totally think women look good in hijabs. No I don't like Islam, but I've always liked women slightly covered because it makes me not see what I wish to see, so basically I get more curious to see what's underneath."

Uh huh...just imagine slowly peeling off layer by layer. Mostly, I like hijab because I have a thing for ladies with nice eyes and it really shows off the eyes when that's all you can see hehe.

[pocaracas]

Hooters' girls in hijabs sounds kinky. I like it.

I actually think some women look sexy in hijab

yes, some women look sexy in spite of the hijab.

[Losty]

I actually think some women look sexy in hijab

yes, some women look sexy in spite of the hijab.

And some women look sexy because of the hijab. There's just something about it, the mystery, the eyes. I like it.

[robvalue]

Banned for wearing a tablecloth.

[Angrboda]

I think it's worth noting that the court may end up ruling on a much narrower ground than whether the hijab or the dress code should be the deciding factor here. During the interview, she did not request a religious accommodation, as, if I understand correctly, she is not typically required to do so under the 1964 Civil Rights Act. "A federal district judge originally ruled for Elauf, but an appeals court reversed and said it was the job applicant's responsibility to ask for the exception – just as people with disabilities must under the Americans with Disabilities Act." (USA Today) On this point, I can concur with Chief Justice John Roberts' worry that a dialogue about religious practices in interviews could lead to increased stereotyping and facilitate discrimination based on religion. As a person with a psychiatric disability, I know all too well the double-edged sword that disclosure can present. If I don't disclose in an interview, my failure to ask for accommodations at the appropriate time may result in my termination later. If I do disclose during an interview, I risk the possibility of being unfairly discriminated against without any real recourse or protection. I believe it said in the article that the hijab is a recognized religious habit for the purposes of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, but to my mind it is not clearly a purely religious adornment and so she might on those grounds need to make an explicit request for a religious accomodation during the interview, but as noted, this has attendant risks. It's worth noting that the defendant has allowed the practice of wearing the yarmulke in the past, so their argument based on a "look policy" seems a little thin.

[dyresand]

Banned for wearing a tablecloth.

Rob i wrong section wrong section

[Mister Agenda]

Would it help to know the young lady asked people who worked there in advance whether her hijab would be an issue? Or that the interviewer considered her perfectly dressed for an A&F interview (trendy jeans) otherwise?

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"Losty, I totally think women look good in hijabs. No I don't like Islam, but I've always liked women slightly covered because it makes me not see what I wish to see, so basically I get more curious to see what's underneath."

Uh huh...just imagine slowly peeling off layer by layer. Mostly, I like hijab because I have a thing for ladies with nice eyes and it really shows off the eyes when that's all you can see hehe.

Not to mention a hijab can save you a lot of time when you're in a hurry and your hair's a mess.

[Clueless Morgan]

CM, Let's say I'm straight out of law school, top of the class, super memory for all the law's caveats and so on.
I apply for a position at a law firm, they like my CV and set up an interview.
I show up wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Will they hire me? (NO)
Is there any health and safety hazard? (NO)
Is it an aesthetic thing? (YES)
Would it harm the business if I wore jeans and t-shirt to work? (Depends on the customer)

I'm not saying that businesses shouldn't have a dress code or set certain standards of appearance, I'm saying there should be some reasonable amount of leniency in lieu of these things being purely aesthetic. Which A&F apparently has, since they say they allow a limited exception for religious head coverings (a caveat that might have been brought about by A&F being sued on this exact same issue previous to this case).
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/9-1-10.cfm

The bottom line is, based on current law, A&F must accommodate employees' sincerely held religious beliefs unless that business can demonstration that doing so would "impose an undue hardship on the business" (quoted from the link above) and, in my opinion, if such an accommodation would endanger the health and safety of the employee (such as an employee who cannot wear a hard hat because their religion demands they wear a turban or cannot adequate operate a respirator because they have a full beard, or an employee that wears flowing clothing that could be entangled in machinery).

That said, what is the target audience for this Abercrombie? Is it conservative, or, as someone said, raunchy?
If it is conservative, then I agree that the woman should be hired as she would be upholding conservative values by wearing that thing on her head and showing her respect for her cultural heritage (note I didn't say religion the hijab is not a religious item, as far as I'm concerned)
If the store caters to young liberal slutty women, then the staff must act and dress accordingly.
It seems the store has a dress code and that code disallows the covering of the hair. Knowing this, why would that woman go to the job interview wearing something in defiance of the established dress code?

Why would that woman, whose culture and/or religious beliefs seem to value/dictate a certain level of modesty, want to work in a store that sells clothing that, according to her culture and/or religious beliefs, are immodest?

It seems to me that she's caught in the middle between a culture that values modesty to such a high degree that even having her hair uncovered is too much to handle, and a culture in which women can wear midriff-bearing, form-fitting, "immodest" clothing all they want.

I wonder, though:

Would Abercrombie & Fitch allow a female cancer patient who has lost all her hair to wear a head scarf?

I actually think some women look sexy in hijab

This woman would look sexy with or without the hijab. 'Nuff said.
(Those eyes!!! )
(Also, I love that color - it would look good on me )

Not to mention a hijab can save you a lot of time when you're in a hurry and your hair's a mess.

I guess today would have been a hijab day for me, then.

[pocaracas]

CM, Let's say I'm straight out of law school, top of the class, super memory for all the law's caveats and so on.
I apply for a position at a law firm, they like my CV and set up an interview.
I show up wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Will they hire me? (NO)
Is there any health and safety hazard? (NO)
Is it an aesthetic thing? (YES)
Would it harm the business if I wore jeans and t-shirt to work? (Depends on the customer)

I'm not saying that businesses shouldn't have a dress code or set certain standards of appearance, I'm saying there should be some reasonable amount of leniency in lieu of these things being purely aesthetic. Which A&F apparently has, since they say they allow a limited exception for religious head coverings (a caveat that might have been brought about by A&F being sued on this exact same issue previous to this case).
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/9-1-10.cfm

yeah... when I replied to you, I wasn't aware of that other prior information...
I'm out of ideas as to how these guys are going to defend themselves...

The bottom line is, based on current law, A&F must accommodate employees' sincerely held religious beliefs unless that business can demonstration that doing so would "impose an undue hardship on the business" (quoted from the link above) and, in my opinion, if such an accommodation would endanger the health and safety of the employee (such as an employee who cannot wear a hard hat because their religion demands they wear a turban or cannot adequate operate a respirator because they have a full beard, or an employee that wears flowing clothing that could be entangled in machinery).

Perhaps they can claim diminished sales due to that conservative clerk...?

That said, what is the target audience for this Abercrombie? Is it conservative, or, as someone said, raunchy?
If it is conservative, then I agree that the woman should be hired as she would be upholding conservative values by wearing that thing on her head and showing her respect for her cultural heritage (note I didn't say religion the hijab is not a religious item, as far as I'm concerned)
If the store caters to young liberal slutty women, then the staff must act and dress accordingly.
It seems the store has a dress code and that code disallows the covering of the hair. Knowing this, why would that woman go to the job interview wearing something in defiance of the established dress code?

Why would that woman, whose culture and/or religious beliefs seem to value/dictate a certain level of modesty, want to work in a store that sells clothing that, according to her culture and/or religious beliefs, are immodest?

Why do some muslims work at supermarkets where they sell non-hallal meat?
Why do (some of) they, after being hired, then refuse to sell that meat?

It seems to me that she's caught in the middle between a culture that values modesty to such a high degree that even having her hair uncovered is too much to handle, and a culture in which women can wear midriff-bearing, form-fitting, "immodest" clothing all they want.

Indeed she is... and she wants her way to come on top.

I wonder, though:

Would Abercrombie & Fitch allow a female cancer patient who has lost all her hair to wear a head scarf?

why do you say something like that? got anything against bald women?

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[Clueless Morgan]

Perhaps they can claim diminished sales due to that conservative clerk...?

They would have to hire her, allow her to work there in order to gather the evidence that she, and her hijab, really did diminish sales before they could make that claim.

A demonstration of hardship would have to be made, not merely making the assumption of hardship.

Why would that woman, whose culture and/or religious beliefs seem to value/dictate a certain level of modesty, want to work in a store that sells clothing that, according to her culture and/or religious beliefs, are immodest?

Why do some muslims work at supermarkets where they sell non-hallal meat?
Why do (some of) they, after being hired, then refuse to sell that meat?

That might qualify as a demonstration of hardship incurred by the business and reasonable grounding for firing that employee - but those people were hired and that demonstration of hardship made.

(This also depends on the size of the store, too; if the employee is the only cashire casheere (fuck, how do you spell cashier??? :p) then that business has a stronger hardship case than a business with 10 cashiers and only one that won't sell the hallal meat, or the skinny jeans, or whatever. Both have a hardship case, but the one is much stronger than the other.)

why do you say something like that? got anything against bald women?

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Aww, sad... broken link...