Jihad v. Crusades

[mralstoner]

[Cato]

[mralstoner]

If you think the Crusades were defensive in nature you have a very poor grasp of geography and history; essentially, you're on dumb mother fucker.

I don't agree, but let's assume that you're right that the Crusades were not defensive.

There is still the first point that Christian doctrine has nothing remotely like the sanctioning of violence that Islam does.

We're comparing religious doctrine, and the subsequent behavioural patterns of its followers, not just the individual historical actions of people who may or may not be accurate representations of their doctrine.

The Islamic holy books contain hundreds of calls to violence. Mohammed spent 13 years head-chopping and sex enslaving.

Compare that with Jesus and the New Testament. There is NO COMPARISON.

Mohammed was a barbaric role model. Jesus was a hippy who overturned tables.

Trying to compare Islam and Christianity is intellectually juvenile. Read the biographies of Jesus and Mohammed to a 5th grader and even they can see that one is a far more violent role model than the other.

The burning question is: why do so many atheists want to make all religions equally violent?

You'd need a psychologist to answer that. My guess is you're all intellectually lazy and just want to hate all religions because it's intellectually easy.

That's not rationality, that's lazy hate.

[abaris]

[mralstoner]

Fighting against christian towns and nations, some even under the protection of or belongig to Byzanz.

Why would Christians be slaughtering other Christians if this is a religious Crusade? Different sects?

[vorlon13]

Regarding 'scant' theological basis for Christian violence, all one needs is:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

One doesn't need to be very strict at all to apply it to ALL women of ALL other faiths, or no faith at all. That it hasn't seen wider employ in that vein is a fucking miracle (of sorts).

[Napoléon]

The burning question is: why do so many atheists want to make all religions equally violent?

The burning question I'd like to ask is what difference does it make?

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Why would Christians be slaughtering other Christians if this is a religious Crusade? Different sects?

Weren't the Byzantines Orthodox and technically heretics?

[mralstoner]

Regarding 'scant' theological basis for Christian violence, all one needs is:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

Both the Bible and Koran are internally contradictory, but with a crucial difference...

In Christianity, Jesus in the New Testament moderates most of the Old Testament barbarity.

In Islam, Mohammed's early peaceful Meccan period is abrogated by his later violent Medina period.

They are polar opposites. One is progressive, the other is regressive. (Relax, I wouldn't call Christianity "progressive" in a normal context, just relative to Islam).

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The burning question I'd like to ask is what difference does it make?

If one religion wants to behead you, and the other wants to wash your feet, that's kind of a big difference.

[ReptilianPeon]

I have heard the first of the Crusades was put into motion because the invading (Seljuq dynasty) Turks made it harder for Christians (Europeans?) to go on pilgrimages to the so-called 'Holy Land'. Despite the Turks quickly(?) realizing their mistake(s) the first Crusade went ahead anyway. I don't know much about the Crusades/Crusaders so I can only offer a few words.

What people often forget is that many people changed their religion because of trade. Sure, Jihad and Jizia played a role but let's take the Sahara as an example. Trade is, I believe I am right in saying, the reason why Musa I of Mali is the richest person in all of human history. During the time of the Crusades there was an extensive network trade routes across the Sahara.

People needed salt - and lots of it. They needed precious metals too but salt was the main thing. And just like the people of today, the people of yesteryear wanted to be able to negotiate the best possible trade arrangements. If you want favoruable trade arrangements it helps you are really good friends with your trading partners (obviously). One way of improving relations with your neighbours is adopting their religion - or at least it used to be. Plus, some of the peoples of the Sahara may have heard about some of the victories of the Moors and others and interpreted them in such a way that they ultimately changed their religion.

Not only that, the traders from Arabia, with their Agals, camels and stories about forty thieves (stereotypes, I know), may have seemed exotic to the peoples of Africa. Along with wealth, the the traders will have inevitably brought with them new ideas - for better or for worse - such as a new religion. They might have used their religion as a bargaining chip and said "we'll agree to more favourable terms if you convert to our religion". After all, doesn't everybody of every religion consider themselves right, to the point of extreme arrogance in some cases?

First the ruling class/elites might convert in order to improve ties with those whom they trade with. Then, those lower than them may convert because they note that their rulers have converted and you have a 'trickle down effect'. I don't know about you, but to me this makes sense.

Looking again to Musa I of Mali, there are many stories of his generosity. He he is said to have paid for people to go on pilgrimages and facilitated the construction of many religious structures. Musa I of Mali was using his wealth to encourage the people of Mali to convert to Muhammad's religion, in much the same way the Saudi royal family is doing today (by funding the spread of Wahabbism).

[abaris]

If one religion wants to behead you, and the other wants to wash your feet, that's kind of a big difference.

Yeah, that's christianity for sure. Rose tinted glasses on speed.

Look up all the raving American evangelical pastors, who preach about killing gays. Or at the very least cast them out from society. Look at the KKK, and don't you dare to come up with the no true scotsman, since that cuts both ways.

Also look at the pretty recent civil war in Lebanon (ended in 1990), where christian militias were responsible for some of the most atrocious massacres.