Islam and sexuallity.

[RobertE]

1. Why do you think I introduced my cost with a conditional? "If" is such an important word.

This is irrelevant. Whether or not your conditional is granted, Mohammed's existence is not predicated on Islam's veracity. Asserting otherwise is a non sequitur.

2. Did you actually read my introduction, if so, you would have noticed that I did clearly state that my knowledge is somewhat limited in this field and that is why I am here, to add my opinions to the debate, and if necessary, when corrected, to change and correct my facts with regards to the responses I got.

You wrote, "[b]I am sure[/b] he was thrown out for this exact reason and founded Islam after". I am asking why you state this, and with such certainty. You never did clarify what you meant, either. Would you mind doing so? Are you saying you think that Mohammed was Christian or Jew, married Aisha when she was nine, and was excommunicated?

I am asking you to clarify this point, and provide the basis for your certainty.

---

One shouldn't count pedophilia against someone if the practice was not out of ordinary in his society and time. In Many ancient cultural traditions both betrothal and consummation were expected to occur during the wife's and often husband's minority.

Slavery was once common practice too, with cruelty to one's slaves prescribed as a good means of control. Does that make the cruel master moral? Does that make the beneficent master moral?

I should think the Messenger of God would have a moral compass that was properly calibrated, no matter the culture of the time.

It depends on the tone of voice, I thought that was pretty obvious. You can say "I am sure", with an element of doubt. And why is it irrelevant, I introduced one statement with an "if." If you have a problem with English grammar, then that is not my fault. If is a small word with a large meaning, and whether I used a conditional or modal verb or what have you, it doesn't matter. The idea is for the other person to interpret it. You interpreted it wrongly to satisfy your own argument. Now, that I have said my piece, I will slip quietly away and have some fun.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It depends on the tone of voice, I thought that was pretty obvious. You can say "I am sure", with an element of doubt.

Fair enough.

And why is it irrelevant, I introduced one statement with an "if."

I've already explained it once, but I will try again. It does not matter whether or not we accept the premise that all religions are false; the veracity of Islam has no bearing on the real-life question of Mohammed's existence. It is entirely possible that Mohammed really did exist, and that Islam is a fraud -- and that is not affected one way or another by whether or not one accepts the premise that all religions are false. The two points are disparate, and connecting them together is an unfounded logical leap.

If you have a problem with English grammar, then that is not my fault.

And if you have a problem with sound reasoning (as seems to be the case), that is not my fault. I've asked you politely to explain yourself, and getting this snark in return doesn't lead me to think that there's much substance behind your words.

If is a small word with a large meaning, and whether I used a conditional or modal verb or what have you, it doesn't matter. The idea is for the other person to interpret it. You interpreted it wrongly to satisfy your own argument.

No, I didn't. I pointed out that your reasoning is flawed, based on the words as written.

Now, that I have said my piece, I will slip quietly away and have some fun.

No clarification, then, eh? No explaining what you believe, or why you believe as you do? I guess I know better than to give you any further reading time, moving forward.

[Regina]

I've seen many theists display their judgement of same sex marriage on here, and even homosexuality in general. Their "reasoning" comes off as a confused mess of bigotry, religious righteousness and appeals to "nature".

Yet if you disagree and call them out on it they get offended.

It's not just on homosexuality, it's also on abortion, sex in general, women's "modesty", a whole range of victimless crimes. Religion demands free speech when it is convenient for them, and then it's "you can't say that, it's offensive!" when it's an opinion they don't like. It's a double standard that needs to go.

At the end of the day, I can't make religion accept me for being gay, nor am I going to try because it's a waste of time. I think these people can believe whatever they want to believe.

But whatever you believe, I'm gonna keep being a poof and there's fuck all you can do about it in the liberal West, sorry.

[abaris]

It's not just on homosexuality, it's also on abortion, sex in general, women's "modesty", a whole range of victimless crimes.

That's because they're all based on Iron age nomads and their paternalistic society. So, looking at it closely, we have Iron age desert dwellers in our midst.

[WinterHold]

a woman who is Algerian (Sunni Islam)

You said it yourself ; that she was a Sunni. Thus you can't generalize on all Muslims.

I'm quoting Lot & what he said to the people of Soddom :


( 165 ) Do you approach males among the worlds
( 166 ) And leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing."
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

So my pov (the same as Lot) is injected from the fact, that if homosexuality was to spread so widely in a society, forming like 99% of the population, then we look at a dead society. Technology shouldn't be counted as a counter argument ; since in many societies it is expensive & beyond the ability of common citizens to pay for a pipe baby (ummm I hope that's the phrase ; I mean like when you have a donor...etc).

But, as God says loud & clear ; that there shall be "no compulsion in religion", then again, it's a matter of personal choice ; if a person wants to be gay, nobody should stop him/her. Don't they have a god ? who appointed me as a judge ??
The problem is with humans who want to force their thoughts & opinions on others, I personally have no problem with gays, aside from the above : that their act is destructive to the natural mating process & to the natural process of producing babies.

And I personally think, that adultery is also destructive, since it puts a high threat on the girl getting pregnant without a contract from the male ; insuring that he would never run & he would take care of the baby forever (along with the baby's mother).

Mmmm the problem is people picking up on gays because they're a minority, yet neglect and ignore other destructive acts, like for example, taking interest on loans !

Furthermore, Arab societies are just that insane & has an honor complex, which the sunni & shia faith just keeps pumping.
But to a level, of executing gays ? that's madness.

And just on a side note, homosexuality is very widely spread in Sunni societies, but mainly practiced underground

[ReptilianPeon]

And just on a side note, homosexuality is very widely spread in Sunni societies, but mainly practiced underground

I agree. Just take a look at this article written about Pakistan:
Gay Pakistan: Where sex is available and relationships are difficult
It seems that when people are desperate they are willing to bend the rules of their religion. The wife of the person that was interviewed is fine with her husband having sex with other men because she knows they will starve otherwise. Religions claim to be these great sources of objective morality and yet people are always looking for ways to twist the religious texts to suit their aims.

[WinterHold]

And just on a side note, homosexuality is very widely spread in Sunni societies, but mainly practiced underground

I agree. Just take a look at this article written about Pakistan:
Gay Pakistan: Where sex is available and relationships are difficult
It seems that when people are desperate they are willing to bend the rules of their religion. The wife of the person that was interviewed is fine with her husband having sex with other men because she knows they will starve otherwise. Religions claim to be these great sources of objective morality and yet people are always looking for ways to twist the religious texts to suit their aims.

This was very interesting :

The result is a culture of dishonesty and double lives, says researcher Qasim Iqbal.

Middle Eastern societies -as a general habit they share- care about what the society says more than anything else. Which yields a culture, that demands women & men to be saints.

Since women are weaker, the poor fellas get the worst of that culture ; in some countries they are forced for example to wear the Niqab, or banned from driving, in some countries there are also laws that prevent men & women to sit in the same place in public unless they are married.

In such a societies, people get pushed to homosexuality, since the burn of the penis is just too hot to handle ; there are no vaginas, so men start to build up a severe attraction to their own sex.

Smaller penises & no body hair would be femboys, large penises with hairy bodies would be the tops ; end of story. Even if a person was a hetro, sooner or later he will fall.

But if you ask, everybody denies it ; even gays would make fun of gays in public because that is the only way to avoid the society's hammer. And that's the curse, of mixing religion with culture & twisting the verses.

In all Sunni/Shia societies (but sunni precisely), it spreads like fire, just hit http://www.xhamster.com , go to the dating section & search for a gay man in sunni Middle Eastern countries. You'll be utterly shocked & surprised by the numbers of the results.

[The Grand Nudger]

Sorry, Atlas, but thats some ignorant shit. If your neighbor is sticking his dick in the "wrong hole" -so sayeth you or your holy book-...he isn't doing anything "destructive to the natural mating process & to the natural process of producing babies" blah...fucking blah. If that's as good a pretense for run-of-the-mill bigotry as you require..the pious "who am I to judge" business might as well be dropped, eh?

You, apparently, are the kind of mental midget that feels comfortable excusing the lesser hobgoblins of his mind on the grounds offered above- that's who.

[WinterHold]

Sorry, Atlas, but thats some ignorant shit. If your neighbor is sticking his dick in the "wrong hole" -so sayeth you or your holy book-...he isn't doing anything "destructive to the natural mating process & to the natural process of producing babies" blah...fucking blah. If that's as good a pretense for run-of-the-mill bigotry as you require..the pious "who am I to judge" business might as well be dropped, eh?

You, apparently, are the kind of mental midget that feels comfortable excusing the lesser hobgoblins of his mind on the grounds offered above- that's who.

I mentioned in other topics, how to some people, it's okay to call others' thoughts stupid, or say things that might hurt their emotions ; yet when it comes to homosexuality, or feminism, these few people get so uptight without a reason, just because the stereotypical opinion is going in that direction.
Which proves a case of double standards & hypocrisy.

Nobody hated homosexuals and nobody spoke about homophobia. If my neighbor is sticking it in the wrong hole, then I should stop sticking my nose in is hole too, right ? but that wouldn't prevent me from forming an opinion, right ?

Just like the opinion you just drew against me, being "mental midget" ?
Or the opinion which some atheists draw upon me for believe in Islam ?

It surprises me how you don't practice what you preach, Rhythm.

[Regina]

No compulsion in religion?

Well to an extent that's true... but failing to partake in the religion means an eternity of burning so it's not really a choice.

And as for your critique on sexuality and which gays are top or bottom...



Laughable. I love how much you've clearly thought about this. In my experience most straight people don't even know what "top or bottom" means in the gay context.