Islam and sexuallity.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Mohammed married a 9-year-old. That pretty much makes him a pedophile, all special pleading aside ... no matter his motivation.

[Minimalist]

So, what are your thoughts, if any at all?

Should have told her that if she doesn't want answers she should not ask questions.

[RobertE]

Mohammed married a 9-year-old. That pretty much makes him a pedophile, all special pleading aside ... no matter his motivation.

If, as we like to claim that all religions are false and just stories, then he couldn't have because he didn't exist. On the otherhand, I am sure he was thrown out for this exact reason and founded Islam after. Remember, and you probably know this already, Allah is God in Islam, but he is also Allah in Christianism too. Either way, all Abrahamic religions follow the same God (or Allah), whichever you prefer.

[abaris]

Mohammed married a 9-year-old. That pretty much makes him a pedophile, all special pleading aside ... no matter his motivation.

I'm certainly not in Mohammed's defense team, but every wealthy and/or poweful man married children at that time. All around the world, in all cultures. Daughters were a commodity to be sold or exchanged for other favors. It's a custom that lasted at least till the late 18th century.

If you want to nail Islam for something no other culture did at that time, it's rather the rampant polygamism that in some regions is still enforced.

[RobertE]

So, what are your thoughts, if any at all?

Should have told her that if she doesn't want answers she should not ask questions.

True.

Off-topic. As for Islam in general. Something is weird. You have the wahabists, the salafists, the Sunnis and Shiites. Pakistani Muslims who live in England are not allowed to shave their beards, this is a well know fact. Women do not wear gloves, but they do cover their ankles and they wear veils, but not to the extent as we see nowadays with full face burquas and ninja-style dress. Pakistani muslims in the United Kingdom are nearly 100% Sunni muslims. The men normally wear hats of some sorts too along with a Djellaba.

The thing that is weird is that here in France which has a great deal more Muslms than the United Kingdom, the Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians (who are Sunnites) do not follow their Pakistani counterparts. That is to say:

1. Men shave on a regular basis.
2. Men do not wear typical Islamic headgear unless they are black muslims from Senegal, Mali or other Islamic African countries.
3.With women, it is divided between burquas, foulards, to crop tops and short skirts.

We know there is a division between Sunnites and Shiites, but from my experience of the United Kingdom and France, there seems to be different interpretations of the same Sunni beliefs and what should be followed.

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Mohammed married a 9-year-old. That pretty much makes him a pedophile, all special pleading aside ... no matter his motivation.

I'm certainly not in Mohammed's defense team, but every wealthy and/or poweful man married children at that time. All around the world, in all cultures. Daughters were a commodity to be sold or exchanged for other favors. It's a custom that lasted at least till the late 18th century.

If you want to nail Islam for something no other culture did at that time, it's rather the rampant polygamism that in some regions is still enforced.

This, I am in agreement with. No doubt that it was rampant in paganism, and right through Judaism and then to Christianism and Islam. No religion or culture is immune to it. There must be reasons as to why Christianism and Islam parted from Judaism. Perhaps they didn't want to follow such a strict text? Perhaps there were power struggles within Judaism, so much so that they left and formed their own religions based on the original texts.

[abaris]

We know there is a division between Sunnites and Shiites, but from my experience of the United Kingdom and France, there seems to be different interpretations of the same Sunni beliefs and what should be followed.

Because they come from different cultures, different levels of education and every holy book can be read and interpreted in a thousand different ways. Muslims also have no pope or church of England to act as a GPS to a certain belief system.

It's the same with orthodox jews by the way. There are some, who are outright afraid to even go near a woman and others, who don't have a problem with everyday contact. Yet both groups follow the same kind or orthodoxy. And they also have no ultimate religious authority to lead the way.

Same with protestants, who managed to split into about 40.000 different denominations, all of which read the bible differently.

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Perhaps there were power struggles within Judaism, so much so that they left and formed their own religions based on the original texts.

Based on the general situation of the time and the region, it's rather political than spiritual. Many regions where Islam first found it's footing were Byzantinian provinces and therefore christian. The main struggle between Islam, which wasn't in any shape or form politically or spiritually united, and Christianity was a war betweeen Byzanz and the rising Arabian powers. It lasted from the late 7th century till 1453 and the fall of Byzanz.

Same with christianity. It only grew powerful once they managed to get into the good grace of the Roman emperor. By making many spiritual concessions.

[RobertE]

We know there is a division between Sunnites and Shiites, but from my experience of the United Kingdom and France, there seems to be different interpretations of the same Sunni beliefs and what should be followed.

Because they come from different cultures, different levels of education and every holy book can be read and interpreted in a thousand different ways. Muslims also have no pope or church of England to act as a GPS to a certain belief system.

It's the same with orthodox jews by the way. There are some, who are outright afraid to even go near a woman and others, who don't have a problem with everyday contact. Yet both groups follow the same kind or orthodoxy. And they also have no ultimate religious authority to lead the way.

Same with protestants, who managed to split into about 40.000 different denominations, all of which read the bible differently.

---

Perhaps there were power struggles within Judaism, so much so that they left and formed their own religions based on the original texts.

Based on the general situation of the time and the region, it's rather political than spiritual. Many regions where Islam first found it's footing were Byzantinian provinces and therefore christian. The main struggle between Islam, which wasn't in any shape or form politically or spiritually united, and Christianity was a war betweeen Byzanz and the rising Arabian powers. It lasted from the late 7th century till 1453 and the fall of Byzanz.

Same with christianity. It only grew powerful once they managed to get into the good grace of the Roman emperor. By making many spiritual concessions.

You say that they come from different cultures, but French culture is virtually the same, except they have no monarchy and it follow laicity. However, the Qu'ran is based on the Old Testament, and is therefore whatever is written should be followed to the letter. Their level of education is the same as in England too, but I know of some Muslims who drink alcohol and take drugs too. In fact, I remember a Tunisian friend of mine who stated that he saw many do it. Secondly, the support for Palestine is a great deal stronger in France than it is in England too, and their hatred for Shiites knows no limits. When a Sunnite in France wishes death on a Shiite, even more so than a Jew, then that is hatred on another scale, yet they are "moderate muslims", compared to the Sunnis of England.

As you said, there are about 40k different denominations as far as Protestants are concerned, yet how many denominations of Catholics are there? Herein lies the difference. Islam, apart from the Shi'a-Sunnite split, which is like Catholicism and Protestantism; is very much like Catholicism, which is why Islam can never be compared to Protestantism, but Catholicism for following the rules almost to the letter.

[abaris]

As you said, there are about 40k different denominations as far as Protestants are concerned, yet how many denominations of Catholics are there? Herein lies the difference. Islam, apart from the Shi'a-Sunnite split, which is like Catholicism and Protestantism; is very much like Catholicism, which is why Islam can never be compared to Protestantism, but Catholicism for following the rules almost to the letter.

No, Shia and Sunni are only the broad definitions. There are many more splits within these groups. Too many to mention and too many to look them up for this discussion. Also, a Shiite in Syria ticks differently than a Shiite in Iraq or Iran for that matter. First there's the cultural split between Arabs and Persians, which have totally different traditions with the only link being the religion. And then the split actually rund through nations, since the Islamic countries are far from homogenous, which is obvious when looking at a map and the straight lines making up the borders. Iraq for example is created out of three former Osmanic in some colonial office in London during the 1920ies. It has Sunnis, a majority of Shiites and Kurds, which is again a totally different culture. And then there's the clan structure, which supercedes religion as well as nationality.

All you're presenting is anecdotal evidence without looking at the big picture. So you met a few people, who supported this or supported that. That doesn't count by any standards. My grandfathers were jews. One I didn't know, since he died long before I was born. But the other enjoyed his roasted pork. He was still a jew but didn't give a damn about religious restrictions. Same goes for your boozing muslim. He obviously doesn't care.

So we're down to education. Less educated and poorer usually means more prone to fall for religious woo. You're obviously from the UK and I'm not familiar with the situation there, but I bet you that churches in rural areas are fuller than they are in the big hubs.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Mohammed married a 9-year-old. That pretty much makes him a pedophile, all special pleading aside ... no matter his motivation.

I'm certainly not in Mohammed's defense team, but every wealthy and/or poweful man married children at that time. All around the world, in all cultures. Daughters were a commodity to be sold or exchanged for other favors. It's a custom that lasted at least till the late 18th century.

If you want to nail Islam for something no other culture did at that time, it's rather the rampant polygamism that in some regions is still enforced.

Pedophilia is defined as "sexual feelings directed towards children."

It looks to me like Mo is a pedophile.

[abaris]

Pedophilia is defined as "sexual feelings directed towards children."

It looks to me like Mo is a pedophile.

Yup, along with every other powerful or rich male of the time. The only difference being, he already had married rich, since his first wife was the one with the money, and married the child as an addon.