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The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
#21
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
The cause of the rioting was years of discriminatory policing. The shooting was just the match. There was going to be a riot if an unarmed African American was shot in Ferguson, almost no matter the specific circumstances.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#22
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
I don't see why black people rioting is relevant - Does it perpetuate stereotypes to bigots? Because white people can riot as well - Just look at austerity protests in Greece. The fact blacks riot is not proof that they're violent or that it's their fault - It's merely a reaction caused by controversial and racist police-citizen relationships
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#23
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 25, 2015 at 9:06 pm)KUSA Wrote:
(March 25, 2015 at 7:34 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Does that justify killing him?

He reached into the cop's car and started a scuffle.  Did the policeman have no nonlethal alternatives?

What was wrong with pressing the accelerator and pulling away slowly? Or tasing him? Or using pepper spray? Or rolling up the window?

If Mr. Brown wasn't a piece of shit he would still be alive.

What was wrong with him not being a thieving, threatening, menace to society piece of shit?

Obviously we want people to obey the law.

I should hope that it is just as obvious to you that 1) being a thief is not a capital offense; 2) opting for deadly force and passing up less-deadly alternatives redounds to the deficit of the police anyway, as what trust the public has in them is eroded even further.

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#24
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 25, 2015 at 7:46 pm)Brakeman Wrote:
(March 25, 2015 at 7:34 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Does that justify killing him?
Justification doesn't enter into it.
The cop is not a judge, he must follow his training, and the training that cops receive tell them to use deadly force, IE shoot and kill, someone that tries to take their side arm from them.

If you don't like this training, then push to change the training given to police.

Justification is at the heart of the matter. 

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#25
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 28, 2015 at 11:10 am)Mezmo! Wrote: What is being forgotten and which the OP tacitly expresses is that American media misrepresented the facts to fit a liberal narrative and malevolent opportunists exploited the lie. Rioting against innocents and demonizing honorable professionals.

When did any of this happen?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#26
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 28, 2015 at 11:10 am)Mezmo! Wrote: What is being forgotten and which the OP tacitly expresses is that American media misrepresented the facts to fit a liberal narrative and malevolent opportunists exploited the lie. Rioting against innocents and demonizing honorable professionals.

And the supposed misrepresentation of the media is being used as  a red herring to distract everyone from the true problem, racial bias in a police institution.

This one specific incident was not the lone cause of these riots.  This was due to racial tension that had been building for a long time and was going to inevitably boil over.  Blaming people that abused this one specific incident for political gain while failing to place any blame on a police department rife with racial bias and abuse is insufficient, and people like A Theist are trying to use the facts of this one specific case to sweep the rest of the ugliness under the rug in order to claim political superiority.

Don't be one of them, Chadzo.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#27
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 28, 2015 at 4:51 pm)A Theist Wrote: "Hands up. Don't shoot" wasn't a distortion? The vigilante leftwing media was all over that bullshit. Unlike a lot of the left leaning media outlets FOX provides a forum where representatives from both sides of an issue argue their points.

You see, this is why we can't have nice things in America.  There are people that actually believe Fox News is fair and balanced.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#28
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 30, 2015 at 12:50 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: When did any of this happen?

And where is this left-wing vigilante media they speak of?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#29
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 30, 2015 at 1:14 pm)Faith No More Wrote:
(March 30, 2015 at 12:50 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: When did any of this happen?

And where is this left-wing vigilante media they speak of?

Good point. I'm so used to the whine of "liberal bias" I sometimes forget to ask where the hell this "liberal media" is supposed to be. Anyone who harbors delusions that our corporate controlled media still has a left wing bias should have been disabused of this misconception during the W Bush administration when our media shamelessly turned into a bunch of cheerleaders for the run up to the Iraq War and then promptly swept it all under the rug after the case for war was clearly not even sort-of true. 

They even put a strict moratorium on the word "lie", treating any accusations of dishonesty as akin to screaming profanities on the air. The offender was immediately pooh-poohed as being "shrill" and discredited as an impolitic verbal-bomb-throwing demagogue. This ban on the "L" word made debates with Republicans rather awkward, with Biden inventing a complex counter to GOP dishonesty of chuckling while his opponent's ass drops off and his nose grows so long as to poke the cameraman. 

This strict moratorium on the word "lie" remained in effect ...until Obama turned out to be wrong that everyone would be able to keep their health care plan after the reforms and then the word was suddenly bandied about in a wild and carefree manner, coupled with concern trolling over "oh, how will he ever regain the trust of the American people ever again?" Gone was the former burden of proof that the accuser had to prove the accused wasn't simply mistaken. No longer did the media even need to concern itself with first finding out what the facts were before a rush to judgment. 

This double standard is nothing new. " the media comes running to gobble up the latest ginned up faux outrage among conservatives. From Acorn to Benghazi, our media just can't seem to learn that every time The Little Conservative Boy cries "wolf", that there never is a wolf. By the time we learn there's no there there, our media has ceased to care and goes running after the next wolf sighting. 

"Liberal Media" my ass. 
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#30
RE: The Lie: Hands up. Don't shoot.
(March 30, 2015 at 11:31 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(March 25, 2015 at 5:34 pm)A Theist Wrote: The "Hands up. Don't shoot", in the Michael Brown incident, has been determined by the DOJ to be "Bogus".
Once again the little conservative boy cries "wolf, wolf, wolf!"

I know conservatives don't like to be bothered with facts when they're working up their latest manufactured outrage but here we go:

1. "Not proven" isn't the same thing as "proven to the contrary". 
2. While the DOJ was not able to prove wrongdoing by the acting officer, it did find systematic racism in the Ferguson Police, a point glossed over by the conservative outrage machine.
3. The whole shooting of Brown was rendered comparatively moot, by which I mean you could have video footage proving self-defense by the shooting officer and the issue was rendered comparatively insignificant by the irresponsible and jack-booted activity of the police in response to the peaceful Ferguson protests. The Ferguson Police fired upon media camera crews, swept through nearby restaurants where they reportedly roughed up and arrested reporters for not clearing out fast enough, and generally acted like a bunch of drunken frat boys playing with their shiny new toys they got for Christmas. Their jack-booted behavior would be condemned by the USA if it happened in any other country. 

But the biggest fact I would like to bring to the table for Foxland that might help us to constructively deal with our ongoing race relations issues and help bring about the much needed healing is this:

Talking about race relation problems does not cause racial violence. 

We saw the assertions to the contrary when DeBlasio (*gasp*) talked about his feelings about his biracial son and "the talk" he had with him about how to deal with the police. We saw this when Obama talked about he if he had a son, he would be Travon's age. The conservative outrage machined swung into action, "OMG! They're stoking racial violence. DeBlasio caused the murder of those two police officers!"

So, apparently, if you don't talk about a problem, it just goes away?

Or if you do talk about a problem, even in the most gentle manner, you then own what anyone anywhere does? 

Or if you say, "You know, we really need to work on the problem in America of racial profiling so we can become a better society." it's the same thing as "go out and kill someone or riot in the streets"? 

You see the logical problem?

In order to be able to address a problem, we first need to be able to talk about a problem. Problems won't go away if you ignore them. As for Brown, the shooting could be completely justified for all it matters. We've got much larger issues to worry about with race relations in America. The behavior the Ferguson Police in the aftermath underscores this point. 

I was actually talking about "Hands up. Don't shoot" being a lie that the media jumped all over. Eric Holder called it Bogus. Another journalist who at first bought into "Hands up. Don't shoot", is now apologizing and saying that it was built on a lie. If you want to talk about racism within the Ferguson police department then start another thread and state your arguments there. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, what do you think, was "Hands up. Don't shoot", a lie?
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Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
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