Opinions on my drive to be an atheist

[Cyberman]

Rastafaris anyone?

No thanks, I just put one out.

[Cato]

For some reason I can't see the video. When Matt says "something along the lines of" that quote, can someone please tell me what he actually says? I'd like to compare it to the paraphrase.

Matt leads into this part of the talk by acknowledging that it is typically a multitude of considerations that lead to someone declaring their atheism; he does however leave room for epiphenomenal moments where people will weigh more strongly one consideration over others. The next part is what's being quote mined; namely, that atheists are often challenged by believers in that we only choose not to believe in God so that we aren't burdened with the constraints imposed by the Christian notion of sin.

Matt's argument is that the Christian notion of sin is so contrary to human nature that it can stand alone as justification for rejecting the God claim. This is also the part that the OP either intentionally ignores (if quote mining) or is incapable of understanding (if obtuse). The OP is attempting to pass off Matt's repetition of a common believer retort in order to set up an argument as a declaration that atheists don't believe in God simply to do whatever the fuck we want without moral consequence.

[Cyberman]

Cheers. I could smell it as a mined quote, but couldn't confirm it. My shields went up at the mention of "said something along the lines of" when the full quote and its context was so readily available.

[Ben Davis]

Hey all. Quick question, I can honestly say that one reason why I don't want to be a god fearing person anymore is that I just want to live life how I want to live it. I am married. I love my wife, but we were way young when we got married. If I was an absolute atheist, whatever that means, I would definitely come clean to her and probably get a divorce. Is this a bad driving force?

Hi nicanica, if it's advice you're looking for then here's my tuppence-worth: Please pay attention to the people who are advising honesty in your marriage. You say you love & respect your wife (even if you're not 'in love' with her)? You have a modicum of self-respect? Then you owe it to her & yourself, to honour those emotions with sincerity.

Your fears are leading you to many assumptions about her reactions (she'll be crushed, she won't understand my wavering belief etc.). You've been with her long enough to know her well so you may be right but here's a challenge: how much do you think she intuits about how you're feeling? If she knows you well, it may be that she 'senses' that something's wrong and is longing for you to be honest; that lack of honesty might be causing her much distress. Or it could be that she hasn't a clue about how you're feeling. In which case I'd challenge: how much can you really know about how she's feeling and how she would react? She could be hiding as much from you as you are from her. These paths of uncertainty are damaging to any long-term relationship and require honesty for the first step in changing them. Deal with your fears by confronting the situation. And remember to honour your sincerity with a good plan on how you're going to broach the subject, what you're going to say and how you're going to say it.

Try not to spend too much time dwelling on what the consequences might be because you really can't predict what's going to happen until you find out what she thinks and how she feels about your situation. You're not the only person in the relationship so don't try to deal with the problems 'for the both of you'.

As for the question of your religiosity? I assume you're in the US, yes? Then you live in a country where divorce law is not described by JW dogma. So what if JWs say you can only get divorced in there's infidelity? They don't make the rules and if push comes to shove, you can divorce for any reason you see fit. Besides, if you google, you can find many cases where JWs have granted divorce for other reasons. 

There are many more factors in a relationship than sex and some couples find that infidelity (or the fantasy of) actually enhances their marriage. Please remember that many of those other factors have far more reaching consequences: withholding the truth from your wife, for example. So you don't need to 'become an atheist' in order to divorce, neither do you need to leave the JWs if you divorce for reasons other than infidelity. I'd suggest that if you think you'll be ostracised by your community if infidelity isn't the citation for your divorce, that reflects more on them and their lack-lustre definition of 'community spirit' than it does on you. As long as you maintain your integrity throughout, that is.

[The Grand Nudger]

(b-mine)
You have to keep saying it, because you keep implying it...as you just did....in bold - as though there is a connection between following his indoctrination and avoiding (or falling prey to) said "consequences" -beyond the implication made, by you...understand?  

Perhaps his poor life decisions -are- the consequences of his indoctrination......JW's aren't exactly "well equipped for life", in my experience.  Imaginary friend believing sheeple, or somesuch.  Having never been a JW, or a believer, myself...it's difficult to imagine how I would cope with the loss of both my childhood worldview, and the full support of family and friends.  I know this, though, the thought makes hookers and blow sound pretty damned nice.  Course, there's always that, perhaps your bro just likes hookers and blow?  Maybe he'd have a thing for hookers and blow if he remained a JW (as plenty of other JW do.....they're still human, after all - I think....)?  

The effect you point to may have nothing -at all- to do with his indoctrination, given the nature of the claim it's pretty much wide open...............but I do understand why a person with your history might make such assumptions....

(we see "those people", btw, because they are the most obvious examples of their faith..some might even say that they are the most faithful, they also tend to have trouble keeping their mouths shut about it. )

Isn't the meaning of the word consequence simply the result of an action? So yeah, my brother suffered the bad consequences for not following CERTAIN JW principles. Am I implying that this is the proof that they're the true religion? No, not at all. I do believe there are probably some JW's that live double lives but I also think that the religion is attractive to certain kinds of personalities. So most witnesses in my opinion are probably earnest. My brother has issues that go beyond god and religion. I have never even implied that our religion was a talisman for his protection. I am only simply saying that you can nail down some of his biggest mistakes and say, if he had followed his scriptural principles then they could have been avoided. You say that in your experience witnesses aren't equipped for life? What can you base that on? That is about as broad as me saying that my experience with atheist is that they go crazy after smoking too much weed. My brother is one tiny sampling size

If you continue to say that following his JW principles would have averted disaster, you are -indeed- claiming that they are a talisman (regardless of their truth value, not talking about any proof of religion here bud).  It's important to understand that you don't actually -know- whether or not he suffered consequences because he didn't follow those principles...regardless of what they are.  If all you're referring to is something like the principle of "don't do drugs, mmkay" then you are saying "if my brother had not done drugs he would not have done drugs" - but that's a complete "no shit" statement having absolutely nothing to do with "JW principles".  

I'm only trying to show you that your doubt (as this applies to you..remember where we began, eh), or your worry..like so many doubts and worries...is irrational.  Following JW principles does not, so far as I'm aware, lead to any concrete, repeatable, or demonstrable results.  If you're worried about that cosmic "I told you so" moment (particularly with regards to your marriage)...which is what you've expressed - then it's an irrational thing to worry about....so stop worrying about it. Worry first about your own state of mind, and your wifes......because honestly...if god or the Kingdom Hall are the "I told you so" types...then they are fucking useless, and they aren't going to help you resolve your issue any more than this irrational fear/worry/doubt that you've been expressing.

[Won2blv]

For some reason I can't see the video. When Matt says "something along the lines of" that quote, can someone please tell me what he actually says? I'd like to compare it to the paraphrase.

Matt leads into this part of the talk by acknowledging that it is typically a multitude of considerations that lead to someone declaring their atheism; he does however leave room for epiphenomenal moments where people will weigh more strongly one consideration over others. The next part is what's being quote mined; namely, that atheists are often challenged by believers in that we only choose not to believe in God so that we aren't burdened with the constraints imposed by the Christian notion of sin.

Matt's argument is that the Christian notion of sin is so contrary to human nature that it can stand alone as justification for rejecting the God claim. This is also the part that the OP either intentionally ignores (if quote mining) or is incapable of understanding (if obtuse). The OP is attempting to pass off Matt's repetition of a common believer retort in order to set up an argument as a declaration that atheists don't believe in God simply to do whatever the fuck we want without moral consequence.

I believe that the only person being obtuse here is you. My whole point on starting this thread is that the biggest driving factor why I want to give up my beliefs is because I want to sin. Those sins happen to be getting divorced without adultery being involved. And then yes, probably commit "fornication." Matt's lead up was how most atheist can't nail down why they became atheist but he said that "sinning" was probably the biggest factor why. I am not saying that I want to go on a rape and murder rampage. I just want to give up on my marriage. I have been married for 7 years and I just don't see it working out longterm. And I feel that me and my wife are young enough to recover. I never made a declaration that atheist give up god to simply do whatever the fuck they want. That has been the straw man argument that you and other have made

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The opinion expressed in the OP comes across as extremely juvenille. I am having a very difficult time believing the poster is married with children with such superficial outlook on the matter.

Here is another example of your assumptions gone wild, I never mentioned having kids. And I don't have any

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Isn't the meaning of the word consequence simply the result of an action? So yeah, my brother suffered the bad consequences for not following CERTAIN JW principles. Am I implying that this is the proof that they're the true religion? No, not at all. I do believe there are probably some JW's that live double lives but I also think that the religion is attractive to certain kinds of personalities. So most witnesses in my opinion are probably earnest. My brother has issues that go beyond god and religion. I have never even implied that our religion was a talisman for his protection. I am only simply saying that you can nail down some of his biggest mistakes and say, if he had followed his scriptural principles then they could have been avoided. You say that in your experience witnesses aren't equipped for life? What can you base that on? That is about as broad as me saying that my experience with atheist is that they go crazy after smoking too much weed. My brother is one tiny sampling size

If you continue to say that following his JW principles would have averted disaster, you are -indeed- claiming that they are a talisman (regardless of their truth value, not talking about any proof of religion here bud).  It's important to understand that you don't actually -know- whether or not he suffered consequences because he didn't follow those principles...regardless of what they are.  If all you're referring to is something like the principle of "don't do drugs, mmkay" then you are saying "if my brother had not done drugs he would not have done drugs" - but that's a complete "no shit" statement having absolutely nothing to do with "JW principles".  

I'm only trying to show you that your doubt (as this applies to you..remember where we began, eh), or your worry..like so many doubts and worries...is irrational.  Following JW principles does not, so far as I'm aware, lead to any concrete, repeatable, or demonstrable results.  If you're worried about that cosmic "I told you so" moment (particularly with regards to your marriage)...which is what you've expressed - then it's an irrational thing to worry about....so stop worrying about it.  Worry first about your own state of mind, and your wifes......because honestly...if god or the Kingdom Hall are the "I told you so" types...then they are fucking useless, and they aren't going to help you resolve your issue any more than this irrational fear/worry/doubt that you've been expressing.

If my dad was advised to buy apple stock when it came out he could be rich today. If your mom told you to practice abstinence until you're married to avoid an unwanted pregnancy you would probably avoid an unwanted pregnancy. If a school counselor told you to never try meth because it would damage your health it could save your health. So my point is not that any of those advisors are seers or god directed. My point is that they're advice is based off some kind of knowledge and/or experience. And you have to deal with the consequences of listening or not. IMO, it may be a conservative lifestyle but following those JW principles could ensure that you avoid unwanted consequences. Will people ignore them that do profess to follow them? Yes, of course but it is their actions and their consequences they have to deal with. Maybe its the broken clock fallacy, I don't really care, the point I'm trying to make is that some of the principles are true and beneficial. It would take an extremely obtuse person to say there is no possible way that any bible principles are beneficial. Which I don't believe is your position? Even if it was, my position is not that being a JW is a protection but rather its the conservative lifestyle

[Cyberman]

If all you want to do is sin, you need to stay in the religion. Since sin is transgression against the Abrahamic god, once you divorce the god you eliminate the ability to sin (you no longer have anything to transgress against). Let's face it, if you want to screw around and do drugs, you can do that anyway. What you're looking for is an excuse to say you lack a moral compass - even more reason to keep the faith, because then you can do all those things and then say "God" will forgive you. That or find some bible verse to cover it; there's plenty to choose from and you wouldn't be the first.

[KevinM1]

If Matt said that most atheists can't explain why they're atheists, but that sinning is likely the biggest factor, then he's an idiot. Again, if he said that (I'm too lazy to look). Atheism, invariably, is non-belief stemming from a lack of evidence. That non-belief runs the spectrum (see: gnostic atheism vs. agnostic atheism), but that's it. But, no, we didn't go, "Man, you know what's awesome? Sex. And divorce. And not going to church. Screw god, we're gonna do what we want to do!"

Which is to say that, yes, while a lot of us say "fuck god", that was not the start of our journey, but rather an expression of what we've come to realize at the end of it.

You're looking for a way to get off the hook for divorcing your wife. You certainly don't seem like you've come to any kind of new, fundamental understanding of your beliefs, but rather that you're looking for a way to worm out of the rules without sacrificing your core beliefs. But, please, stop pretending you know what atheism is or is not. Your faux turn is really disingenuous, IMO, and frankly a bit insulting since you're attempting to co-opt something you're really not as an excuse to do what you want.

Be honest: do you believe in god or not? If so, you're not an atheist. You may no longer want to be a JW, but there's a huge difference between wanting to leave your sect and deciding there's no credible evidence for god, and that believing in it is utterly illogical.

[Cato]

Nicanica,

First of all, you are right about my assumption run amok. You having children must have been a figment of my imagination. Please accept my apologies on that point.

I still think you are misrepresenting MD's talk. I don't think you'll find anywhere that he states the desire to sin is the 'biggest' factor in jettisoning a belief in God. He did say that this is a very common criticism leveled by believers and that atheists should not feel obligated to justify other reasons for disbelief since the absurdity of the concept of sin is sufficient enough to reject the God claim. Please note that rejecting the God claim on this basis is not borne out of a desire to sin, but that the Christian concept of sin is so antithetical to human nature that it is absurdly implausible that a creator God would devise such a system. The far more reasonable conclusion is that God does not exist and that ancient power brokers devised the idea of sin under the authority of an imagined God as a means of crowd control.

Your straw man defense is dead on arrival. You were quite specific in explaining your desire to adopt atheism for no other reason than to circumvent the divorce prohibition. I don't know if there can be a more clear-cut example of giving up God in order to do what you want. 

With no children involved and assuming there is no other mitigating circumstance, I don't see any moral impediment to your desire for a divorce, sad as it may seem. Division of property and other financial matters can be negotiated between you and your wife and mediated by the courts if need be. The state you live in will determine how onerous this process is. 

I hope this isn't the case, but there's something in all this that reminds me of a professional athlete that feigns retirement in order to get out of a current contract only to shortly thereafter take up with another team and continue on as before. 

[FatAndFaithless]

If Matt said that most atheists can't explain why they're atheists, but that sinning is likely the biggest factor, then he's an idiot. Again, if he said that (I'm too lazy to look).

I'll save you some time: he didn't. He was saying that "you just want to sin" is a common thing said about atheists, and that you can easily turn that 'accusation' around to be a "so what if I do?" kind of thing.

Atheism, invariably, is non-belief stemming from a lack of evidence. That non-belief runs the spectrum (see: gnostic atheism vs. agnostic atheism), but that's it. But, no, we didn't go, "Man, you know what's awesome? Sex. And divorce. And not going to church. Screw god, we're gonna do what we want to do!"

I dunno if I'd say that's invariably what atheism is. Just the lack of belief in god is atheism, the justification for it can be evidential, emotional, simple ignorance (never having considered the concept for example), or other things.

Which is to say that, yes, while a lot of us say "fuck god", that was not the start of our journey, but rather an expression of what we've come to realize at the end of it.

You're looking for a way to get off the hook for divorcing your wife. You certainly don't seem like you've come to any kind of new, fundamental understanding of your beliefs, but rather that you're looking for a way to worm out of the rules without sacrificing your core beliefs. But, please, stop pretending you know what atheism is or is not. Your faux turn is really disingenuous, IMO, and frankly a bit insulting since you're attempting to co-opt something you're really not as an excuse to do what you want.

Be honest: do you believe in god or not? If so, you're not an atheist. You may no longer want to be a JW, but there's a huge difference between wanting to leave your sect and deciding there's no credible evidence for god, and that believing in it is utterly illogical.

Agreed.