Stump the Christian?

[robvalue]

Doing research and thinking things through is exactly what I would encourage anybody to do. Check out a variety of sources, and come to your own conclusions.

[SteveII]

I will caution you. If you ask a good question of an intelligent Christian that he/she cannot answer, you may just end up helping them. If they go research the issue, they will learn that the question has been asked and answered before. So, you may be inadvertently and indirectly educating Christians. BTW, several of you on this forum have served me in this way, so...thanks!

Why would you need to caution anybody on this? Education is the goal, not an unintended consequence.

The education may very well be a better understanding of the Christian doctrine you might be trying to poke a hole in. Like I said, there are no new objections that haven't been heard, dissected and answered by Christian apologists. You, as an atheist, might not think the answers are sufficient, but to someone who already believes in God, such answers carry more weight than for those who start from the assumption there is no god. 

Some atheist think that Christianity is utterly absurd. If someone starts from a position of naturalism and materialism or was hurt by someone who claimed to be religious, and looks no further than a cursory glance at and what other atheist say about Christianity, that person will have a vastly different perspective than someone who is significantly more familiar with the 1000 different components of Christianity and how they work together into a coherent worldview. 

I am speaking from personal experience, if you challenge a thoughtful Christian (with at least a fairly firm Christian worldview) it will not shake him/her--rather prompt further investigation which may alter a particular view but not shake the core beliefs. 

[robvalue]

That's a strawman, most atheists do not assume there is no god. You're also conflating atheism with scepticism, as well as assumptions with conclusions.

Please take the time to learn the differences, I have information on my website:

http://robvalue.wix.com/atheism#!what-is-atheism/c57k

http://robvalue.wix.com/atheism#!what-at...s-not/ceob

One thing you are right about is that apologetics is only convincing to someone who already believes, because it is either not logically sound or requires unfounded assumptions. Someone interested in truth should try and assume as little as possible, and draw conclusions from the available evidence.

[abaris]

Some atheist think that Christianity is utterly absurd. If someone starts from a position of naturalism and materialism or was hurt by someone who claimed to be religious, and looks no further than a cursory glance at and what other atheist say about Christianity, that person will have a vastly different perspective than someone who is significantly more familiar with the 1000 different components of Christianity and how they work together into a coherent worldview. 

I'm perfectly aware that challenging a christian is a fruitless endeavor in most cases. And I'm not out to do that unless they come bible thumping into my hangout. I'm not interested in what they're selling, since my conviction that christianity is utterly absurd is firm. So I'm rather surprised that you christians seem to believe that doing mission work on an atheist board might be successful.

This thread isn't the place for that kind of discussion, but let's just say, I can't take anyone seriously who denies evolution and all the scientific knowledge we have about the universe. I quoted the above mainly for the being hurt by religious person part. That's utterly absurd. I never was and I daresay, most of us here, would say the same. It's just that what I learned at school didn't add up with the claims of religion. Occasionally I'm disgusted by religious persons. When they try to force their bigotry on the world at large, when they resort to violence or condemn people for their way of living. And, as I said in another thread, this isn't in any way discriminatory. I despise radical jews, christians and muslims just the same. But it's not my business if anyone wants to go to church and listen to the preachers. Just keep it in church and not in the general public.

[SteveII]

That's a strawman, most atheists do not assume there is no god. You're also conflating atheism with scepticism, as well as assumptions with conclusions.

Please take the time to learn the differences, I have information on my website:

http://robvalue.wix.com/atheism#!what-is-atheism/c57k

http://robvalue.wix.com/atheism#!what-at...s-not/ceob

One thing you are right about is that apologetics is only convincing to someone who already believes, because it is either not logically sound or requires unfounded assumptions. Someone interested in truth should try and assume as little as possible, and draw conclusions from the available evidence.

Thank you for the correction. Broad and narrow definitions aside, my point was that atheists start from a different place than a Christian when examining theological (or any number of other) questions. It is not as simple as "ah-ha, I'll get them to reject Christianity if I ask questions A, B, and C and they will see how absurd their belief is." 

[FatAndFaithless]

It is not as simple as "ah-ha, I'll get them to reject Christianity if I ask questions A, B, and C and they will see how absurd their belief is." 

That's something on which I agree with you. It's why I'm not really a fan of these kinds of threads, or the ones that try to make a top list of 'best arguments to use against theists'. Everyone is different in their beliefs, understanding of their own theology, and simply their own personality.

[robvalue]

No problem

"Atheists" do not start from any position, other than the disbelief in god claims. If you mean sceptics, please say sceptics. Good sceptics start from the position where they assume as little as possible, and withhold belief in anything until they have sufficient reason to do so. There are plenty of atheists who are not sceptics.

So yes, sceptics view theological claims in the same way as any other claims, and require the same level of evidence before believing them.

If you don't mean sceptics, then please be clear what you do mean Because atheists can be anything they like.

Not all atheists are in the business of trying to deconvert people either. Maybe you mean anti-theists? And it is certainly a simplification to think that any one series of questions is going to be enough to get any given theist to question their beliefs, I totally agree there!

Theists have reasons for their beliefs, or else they wouldn't hold those beliefs. They may be good reasons, they may be bad reasons. Crucially, they may not even be fully aware of what the reasons are themselves. Sometimes the true reasons can become apparent only when the assumptions are drawn into question, and discussion leads them to introspection. That is my approach, to encourage people to think. I'm not trying to strongarm anyone. I'd love people to really consider their beliefs from all viewpoints, and then come to whatever conclusions they may.

[abaris]

It's why I'm not really a fan of these kinds of threads, or the ones that try to make a top list of 'best arguments to use against theists'.  Everyone is different in their beliefs, understanding of their own theology, and simply their own personality.

I'm even tempted to use stronger words than you when it comes to these threads. They're making the same fundamental mistake many christians make when talking about atheism. We're not talking about a homogenous hive mind but about people with different lives, different outlooks and different interests.

[Mudhammam]

Ask them why they would be Muslim instead if they were born in a Muslim country. Statistically, almost all Christians would have been. So apparently the truth depends on where you are born.

Isn't that true of whatever position one takes? Whatever we are taught, whether by books, parents, or the mob, is going to shape our notion of what is true...

[SteveII]

Some atheist think that Christianity is utterly absurd. If someone starts from a position of naturalism and materialism or was hurt by someone who claimed to be religious, and looks no further than a cursory glance at and what other atheist say about Christianity, that person will have a vastly different perspective than someone who is significantly more familiar with the 1000 different components of Christianity and how they work together into a coherent worldview. 

I'm perfectly aware that challenging a christian is a fruitless endeavor in most cases. And I'm not out to do that unless they come bible thumping into my hangout. I'm not interested in what they're selling, since my conviction that christianity is utterly absurd is firm. So I'm rather surprised that you christians seem to believe that doing mission work on an atheist board might be successful.

This thread isn't the place for that kind of discussion, but let's just say, I can't take anyone seriously who denies evolution and all the scientific knowledge we have about the universe. I quoted the above mainly for the being hurt by religious person part. That's utterly absurd. I never was and I daresay, most of us here, would say the same. It's just that what I learned at school didn't add up with the claims of religion. Occasionally I'm disgusted by religious persons. When they try to force their bigotry on the world at large, when they resort to violence or condemn people for their way of living. And, as I said in another thread, this isn't in any way discriminatory. I despise radical jews, christians and muslims just the same. But it's not my business if anyone wants to go to church and listen to the preachers. Just keep it in church and not in the general public.

I have no illusions of converting anyone from this forum. I browse from time to time to stretch my argumentation abilities (and to watch others do the same). 


I am also disgusted by people who claim some religious reason for doing what is otherwise wrong. These are people making bad decisions and it often reflects poorly on God and/or Christianity. 

I know of no Christians who ignore scientific evidence. I know plenty who beleive or don't beleive in specific theories--all across the spectrum. But, since Genesis is not a science book, there is a wide latitude for various beliefs and still be a Christian. If you run across someone who has strong feelings about a particular theory, it is an individual belief, not a cornerstone of Christianity. 

Regarding social issues, like homosexuality, there is a range of beliefs about that as well (and that would certainly be beyond this thread).