What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[The Grand Nudger]

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

Hell....jesus' idea.  The OT god, no matter how much misery he'd inflicted upon you in life...was done inflicting horrors upon you in death.  

Thoughtcrime...jesus idea.  The OT god didn't care what you thought (or what anyone thought) so long as they followed the rules he laid out.

Vicarious redemption...-the- "jesus idea".  If you get me started on this one...it'll be a long, sad, shitty ride.

As disgusting as the choice is to me, I'd take OT god any day of the week.

[Catholic_Lady]

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

From the top of my head without having the exact quote at my hands, the thing about coming to bring a sword would fall into that category.

I know what you are talking about.

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's part of the myth.....real persecution didn't begin until they were in the position of the -persecutors-, as an arm of the state. The myth continues, of course, as christians worldwide claim to be "persecuted" when anyone has the audacity to oppose their shoving this jesus shit down our throats and into our governments.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Jesus did say a lot of really horrible shit, I agree. His fuzzy character requires selective reading.

I have a hypothesis about this in fact, I can't find the place I first heard about it. He could be an amalgamation of two characters, one peaceful and one warmongering. It makes far more sense to me.

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

Off the top of my head, he said that you can't really be a follower of his unless you are willing to abandon your family. Pretty sure he said he wasn't here to bring peace, but a sword, too.

[abaris]

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

I understand that you see the good in the message, but there are others who take quotes like that literally. Some nutjob of a retired general even gave a speech about Jesus not coming back with a sword, but with an AK47. That was pretty recently. Also, since Rob in the meantime provided the quote in question, Jesus also says something about discarding one's parents, friends and family for him and loving him more. Now that might not be outright horrendous, but not very loveable either.

If you talk about Roman times and early christianity, there's a general misconception about martyrdom. The Romans usually accepted every religion into their own pantheon. It was a way to keep the peace in the provinces. The Romans weren't in any way evangelical and trying to convert the people they had conquered, since politics were way more important than religious issues. What the early christians were prosecuted for was not accepting the cult surrounding the Roman emperors. That was the same as not accepting Roman authority and therefore treasonous.

I would have to look up the names, but there were some interesting characters among the early christians, who were opposed to capital punishment as well as doing military service or even extraditing criminals that came in contact with them. That of course didn't sit well with the Romans either. And I consider it a rather sad sign of the course the church took when it started what I use to call the Constantinian butt kissing contest. They threw most of their good ideas out of the window in order to make it into the good graces of the emperor.

[Thumpalumpacus]

From the top of my head without having the exact quote at my hands, the thing about coming to bring a sword would fall into that category.

I know what you are talking about.

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

Wait, earlier you said that the OT was allegory but the NT was literal ... But here you are ascribing a different meaning to what he said -- and that is the antithesis of literalism.

[Catholic_Lady]

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

Off the top of my head, he said that you can't really be a follower of his unless you are willing to abandon your family. Pretty sure he said he wasn't here to bring peace, but a sword, too.

I responded to the sword above. I don't know which verse you are referring to. I'd need to see the context it was said in.

---

I know what you are talking about.

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

Wait, earlier you said that the OT was allegory but the NT was literal ... But here you are ascribing a different meaning to what he said -- and that is the antithesis of literalism.

I apologize. Let me be clear.

I believe the stories told in the OT were written allegorically. I do not believe the story of Jesus in the NT was written allegorically. That doesn't mean that Jesus Himself didn't sometimes use figure of speech or metaphor when describing something. This is nothing unusual or alarming. We all do it, probably every day.

---

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

I understand that you see the good in the message, but there are others who take quotes like that literally. Some nutjob of a retired general even gave a speech about Jesus not coming back with a sword, but with an AK47. That was pretty recently. Also, since Rob in the meantime provided the quote in question, Jesus also says something about discarding one's parents, friends and family for him and loving him more. Now that might not be outright horrendous, but not very loveable either.

If you talk about Roman times and early christianity, there's a general misconception about martyrdom. The Romans usually accepted every religion into their own pantheon. It was a way to keep the peace in the provinces. The Romans weren't in any way evangelical and trying to convert the people they had conquered, since politics were way more important than religious issues. What the early christians were prosecuted for was not accepting the cult surrounding the Roman emperors. That was the same as not accepting Roman authority and therefore treasonous.

I would have to look up the names, but there were some interesting characters among the early christians, who were opposed to capital punishment as well as doing military service or even extraditing criminals that came in contact with them. That of course didn't sit well with the Romans either. And I consider it a rather sad sign of the course the church took when it started what I use to call the Constantinian butt kissing contest. They threw most of their good ideas out of the window in order to make it into the good graces of the emperor.

You are correct, in Jesus' quote regarding the sword, He also mentioned family. I just looked at it. I don't think He meant that we shouldn't love our families, but that conflict between good and evil and differing beliefs was not limited to strangers but would also happen amongst families. It's harder to hold your ground about something when it upsets your family, more so than when it upsets some stranger on the street. So I understand why the specification needed to be made.

[The Grand Nudger]

Allegory isn't a shield against immorality.  Claiming something to be allegorical does not rescue it's moral status -or even modify it-.  We're perfectly capable of telling each other shitty, immoral, allegorical stories.

Both the OT -and- the NT are shining examples of this.

[FatAndFaithless]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Luke 14:26, CL.

Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

And hey, how 'bout John 12:25?

John 12:25 - "Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

[robvalue]