What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[The Grand Nudger]

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

Hell....jesus' idea.  The OT god, no matter how much misery he'd inflicted upon you in life...was done inflicting horrors upon you in death.  

Thoughtcrime...jesus idea.  The OT god didn't care what you thought (or what anyone thought) so long as they followed the rules he laid out.

Vicarious redemption...-the- "jesus idea".  If you get me started on this one...it'll be a long, sad, shitty ride.

As disgusting as the choice is to me, I'd take OT god any day of the week.

[Catholic_Lady]

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

From the top of my head without having the exact quote at my hands, the thing about coming to bring a sword would fall into that category.

I know what you are talking about.

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's part of the myth.....real persecution didn't begin until they were in the position of the -persecutors-, as an arm of the state. The myth continues, of course, as christians worldwide claim to be "persecuted" when anyone has the audacity to oppose their shoving this jesus shit down our throats and into our governments.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Jesus did say a lot of really horrible shit, I agree. His fuzzy character requires selective reading.

I have a hypothesis about this in fact, I can't find the place I first heard about it. He could be an amalgamation of two characters, one peaceful and one warmongering. It makes far more sense to me.

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

Off the top of my head, he said that you can't really be a follower of his unless you are willing to abandon your family. Pretty sure he said he wasn't here to bring peace, but a sword, too.

[abaris]

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

I understand that you see the good in the message, but there are others who take quotes like that literally. Some nutjob of a retired general even gave a speech about Jesus not coming back with a sword, but with an AK47. That was pretty recently. Also, since Rob in the meantime provided the quote in question, Jesus also says something about discarding one's parents, friends and family for him and loving him more. Now that might not be outright horrendous, but not very loveable either.

If you talk about Roman times and early christianity, there's a general misconception about martyrdom. The Romans usually accepted every religion into their own pantheon. It was a way to keep the peace in the provinces. The Romans weren't in any way evangelical and trying to convert the people they had conquered, since politics were way more important than religious issues. What the early christians were prosecuted for was not accepting the cult surrounding the Roman emperors. That was the same as not accepting Roman authority and therefore treasonous.

I would have to look up the names, but there were some interesting characters among the early christians, who were opposed to capital punishment as well as doing military service or even extraditing criminals that came in contact with them. That of course didn't sit well with the Romans either. And I consider it a rather sad sign of the course the church took when it started what I use to call the Constantinian butt kissing contest. They threw most of their good ideas out of the window in order to make it into the good graces of the emperor.

[Thumpalumpacus]

From the top of my head without having the exact quote at my hands, the thing about coming to bring a sword would fall into that category.

I know what you are talking about.

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

Wait, earlier you said that the OT was allegory but the NT was literal ... But here you are ascribing a different meaning to what he said -- and that is the antithesis of literalism.

[Catholic_Lady]

What horrible stuff did Jesus say?

Off the top of my head, he said that you can't really be a follower of his unless you are willing to abandon your family. Pretty sure he said he wasn't here to bring peace, but a sword, too.

I responded to the sword above. I don't know which verse you are referring to. I'd need to see the context it was said in.

---

I know what you are talking about.

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

Wait, earlier you said that the OT was allegory but the NT was literal ... But here you are ascribing a different meaning to what he said -- and that is the antithesis of literalism.

I apologize. Let me be clear.

I believe the stories told in the OT were written allegorically. I do not believe the story of Jesus in the NT was written allegorically. That doesn't mean that Jesus Himself didn't sometimes use figure of speech or metaphor when describing something. This is nothing unusual or alarming. We all do it, probably every day.

---

You have to understand the context this was said in, and you have to look at the entirety of the message brought by Christ. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. This is made especially clear not only by Jesus' entire message and example, but by the fact that when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus very clearly rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, saying "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.

I think what he meant was that there will always be conflict between good and evil, as there should be, since we shouldn't just give up on goodness. The sword meant we should "fight" (figuratively) for goodness and not give up on it. The early Christians especially (and many Christians throughout history and even today) were severely prosecuted and tortured and killed in horrendous ways for their beliefs, but they still stood their ground in the midst of death. Even though we should seek to be at peace with all men, we should remember that Jesus warned us we will be hated for His sake by many people out there.

I understand that you see the good in the message, but there are others who take quotes like that literally. Some nutjob of a retired general even gave a speech about Jesus not coming back with a sword, but with an AK47. That was pretty recently. Also, since Rob in the meantime provided the quote in question, Jesus also says something about discarding one's parents, friends and family for him and loving him more. Now that might not be outright horrendous, but not very loveable either.

If you talk about Roman times and early christianity, there's a general misconception about martyrdom. The Romans usually accepted every religion into their own pantheon. It was a way to keep the peace in the provinces. The Romans weren't in any way evangelical and trying to convert the people they had conquered, since politics were way more important than religious issues. What the early christians were prosecuted for was not accepting the cult surrounding the Roman emperors. That was the same as not accepting Roman authority and therefore treasonous.

I would have to look up the names, but there were some interesting characters among the early christians, who were opposed to capital punishment as well as doing military service or even extraditing criminals that came in contact with them. That of course didn't sit well with the Romans either. And I consider it a rather sad sign of the course the church took when it started what I use to call the Constantinian butt kissing contest. They threw most of their good ideas out of the window in order to make it into the good graces of the emperor.

You are correct, in Jesus' quote regarding the sword, He also mentioned family. I just looked at it. I don't think He meant that we shouldn't love our families, but that conflict between good and evil and differing beliefs was not limited to strangers but would also happen amongst families. It's harder to hold your ground about something when it upsets your family, more so than when it upsets some stranger on the street. So I understand why the specification needed to be made.

[The Grand Nudger]

Allegory isn't a shield against immorality.  Claiming something to be allegorical does not rescue it's moral status -or even modify it-.  We're perfectly capable of telling each other shitty, immoral, allegorical stories.

Both the OT -and- the NT are shining examples of this.

[FatAndFaithless]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Luke 14:26, CL.

Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

And hey, how 'bout John 12:25?

John 12:25 - "Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

[robvalue]

Jesus on how to beat your slaves:

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Other stuff about slavery in the NT:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Advocate child abuse and murder amongst many other cruelties.

Christians are always claiming, “he’s the lamb”, “our savior”, “the king of peace”, “the embodiment of love”, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature. Jesus a nice guy? Not in my book. Nor in any other person’s who is capable of compassion and rationality. Let’s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is. These verses will show not only is Jesus’ “loving” nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him. Jesus’ real mission to come to earth:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17



Jesus advocates murder and death:

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21



Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12



Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9



A few other things about Jesus:

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

http://www.evilbible.com/what_would_jesus_do.htm