What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Nope]

The Old Testament isn't just filled with stories told by a Bronze Age people. It also has the laws that those people believed were created by an omnipotent, omniscient god. Some people believe that god was also omnibenevolent.

There are laws in the bible that supposedly came directly from god.


Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

If this is an allegory then what does it teach us? If god is all powerful then why did he focus laws on not mixing fibers in clothes instead of not killing children or raping women? Remember the mercy being extended to these towns people is forced enslavement. If god wasn't involved it would be an account of the brutality of ancient cultures.

I think that good people naturally gravitate toward the verses about loving others and showing kindness. Other, less kind people, seek out the verses that are about revenge. It seems like each type of person reads a different book but it is all the same bible.

[Catholic_Lady]

Well what if a child has abducted 14 babies and has locked them away in a shed someplace and they're going to starve to death unless you get the information out of him of where the babies are.  If I knew the child had this information I'd be willing to use violence to get the information out of him.
As for slavery, sometimes it's been preferable to take slaves rather than just kill people on the battlefield or leave them to die.

But do you think it's objectively immoral to torture a child just for the hell of it? There are plenty of people out there who get off on that. If a culture was ok with this act, wouldn't you say that they are wrong?

Lol, sure, enslaving is better than neglecting and allowing to die, but wouldn't you say it's still objectively wrong? What about for the many societies who enslaved people by stealing them from their homes and not by "rescuing" them from the battle ground? They most certainly had no problem with that. To them, it was normal and not immoral at all.

Rape also applies.

[pocaracas]

I respect and understand you all's disagreement on this and would never judge anyone who felt differently.

I love these little nuggets of how you speak! True texan!

[Catholic_Lady]

Rob... for a catholic marriage is much more than a social contract.
It is also on of their most cherished sacraments.
And you can never break a sacrament... that's why Henry VIII decided to dissociate himself from the catholics and start the church of England... remember?

Thank you for this. You are correct. I hope that helps, Rob!

---

Sure But whatever it means to them, it is not stopping them having sex before marriage, on the whole, unless I'm misunderstanding the data. So it's not affecting their sexual activity in general, whatever else it may mean to people.

I suppose those people are not True Catholics™ that break it?

That is absolutely hilarious. I want to break god's laws, so I make a new religion. God goes, "Fair enough".

They are still Catholics. Catholics are not perfect people who follow the law all the time. :

I can say that first hand!

[abaris]

Listen, I understand this makes very little sense to you all and doesn't hold much water at all unless you believe in God and believe that He had a special purpose for creating sex. I can't take God out of the picture here. I respect and understand you all's disagreement on this and would never judge anyone who felt differently.

What you fail to realize and probably can't realize when god is always at the forefront of your mind is the underlying message of controlling sexuality. It's a perfect way to control people, to keep them in line and make them feel sinful and wanting, since we speak about one of the most basic urges nature has to offer. And noone, at least while they are young, can refrain from having sexual thoughts.

[robvalue]

What I don't get is why you have to "choose" any particular denomination, like a political party, and settle for the one you agree with the most (or more likely, you just copied from those around you). You are then stuck with all of their proclamations of truth, whether or not you agree with them all.

Why not just be a christian and make up your own mind about what is moral and immoral?

Or even just be a theist, accept all the books we have are man made and very unlikely to be accurate portrayals of any kind of "god" and figure out what a good god would want you to do?

[The Grand Nudger]

Their beliefs are simple: there is an uber-powerful god thing that created this whole Universe and put us here on Earth as some sort of personality test so he could pick the best to be his homies in what we call the eternal afterlife, in whatever form of Universe that god thing resides.
In the meantime, since he saw that humans were misbehaving with each other, he impregnated a human girl and the kid that came forth became Jesus... who walked the Earth... the whole of Judaea... teaching his very own and somewhat newish interpretation of the old writings concerning his dad.
Through some miracle, decades after the Jesus bloke goes away and becomes one third of the original god, someone put down those teaching into writing and they're mostly trustworthy.

None of which is relevant to the discussion at hand, none of which supports the argument to natural law offered, all of which supports the divine will, which is the very -basis- of their condemnation of contraception, regardless of how uncomfortable that makes any catholic here, arguing some softer point.  God doesn't like it, that's why it's immoral, end of.

When was the last time you saw a god killing someone?

When was the last time -anyone- saw that?  Doesn't stop them from using it as the premise to their moral truths, the certainty of which depending upon the assertion that it -did happen-.

[Nope]

I respect and understand you all's disagreement on this and would never judge anyone who felt differently.

I love these little nuggets of how you speak! True texan!

Slightly off topic but English needs a plural form for the word you. You all and y'all make sense. Now back to your regularly scheduled debate

[Catholic_Lady]

It isn't the only way we procreate, though. We have other methods now.

But do you still agree that sex can cause procreation? Do you still agree that sex is the only means found in nature by which human procreation happens?

^This is a very simple concept. :-)

It's the other stuff that gets complicated.

[Longhorn]

What you fail to realize and probably can't realize when god is always at the forefront of your mind is the underlying message of controlling sexuality. It's a perfect way to control people, to keep them in line and make them feel sinful and wanting, since we speak about one of the most basic urges nature has to offer. And noone, at least while they are young, can refrain from having sexual thoughts.

I don't believe in god anymore, and it's still not out of my head. Brainwashing at its best.

That's why I said what the church teaches is harmful, CL. It's mind control.