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(July 11, 2015 at 3:08 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Greed kills religion in terms of violence, suffering, and evil promulgated. Greed.
What's scary is that greed lies deeper in the human psyche than religion. You can eliminate religion altogether, and you will still have wars over resources, land, financial systems, market strategies, productive zones, slave labor, food supply, and so on -- and all of those devolve into greed when you really boil it down.
I disagree with your notion that religion is the biggest factor in violence and poverty, and I look forward you essaying your support for it.
I don't have to. You can't support your statement, whereas I can, fairly easily. Your on an atheist forum after all, not an altruistic one.
July 11, 2015 at 9:45 am (This post was last modified: July 11, 2015 at 9:58 am by IATIA.)
(July 11, 2015 at 3:08 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:
(July 6, 2015 at 7:19 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: But I will say this, anyone who refuses to believe that religion isn't the biggest factor of stupidity and therefore violence and poverty that played into politics since the dawn of civilization is pretty much deluded by some kind of liberal dogma or smth.
Greed kills religion in terms of violence, suffering, and evil promulgated. Greed.
What's scary is that greed lies deeper in the human psyche than religion. You can eliminate religion altogether, and you will still have wars over resources, land, financial systems, market strategies, productive zones, slave labor, food supply, and so on -- and all of those devolve into greed when you really boil it down.
I disagree with your notion that religion is the biggest factor in violence and poverty, and I look forward you essaying your support for it.
IMHO, religion is just the most common excuse, not reason, for the greatest catastrophes. Without religion, 9/11 would still have happened, the Inquisition would still have happened, the Crusades would still have happened and so on. Bad people are just bad, without rhyme or reason. The biggest problem with religion is the effect of my personal liberties.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
(July 11, 2015 at 3:08 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Greed kills religion in terms of violence, suffering, and evil promulgated. Greed.
What's scary is that greed lies deeper in the human psyche than religion. You can eliminate religion altogether, and you will still have wars over resources, land, financial systems, market strategies, productive zones, slave labor, food supply, and so on -- and all of those devolve into greed when you really boil it down.
I disagree with your notion that religion is the biggest factor in violence and poverty, and I look forward you essaying your support for it.
IMHO, religion is just the most common excuse, not reason, for the greatest catastrophes. Without religion, 9/11 would still have happened, the Inquisition would still have happened, the Crusades would still have happened and so on. Bad people are just bad, without rhyme or reason. The biggest problem with religion is the effect of my personal liberties.
How can you seriously say that about the Inquisition and the Crusades? How could they have happened without religion? Without religion, "heresy" would not exist, so how could people torture people due to their heresy? In the Crusades, the invasion of the "holy land" was prompted because it was the "holy land." Without religion, no land would be holy, so how could the Crusades have happened without religion?
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
(July 11, 2015 at 8:02 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: I don't have to. You can't support your statement, whereas I can, fairly easily. Your on an atheist forum after all, not an altruistic one.
Actually, I can support it, by pointing out the wars over time that were driven by resource competition as opposed to those caused by religious schism or enmity. I don't have the time to do that in detail right now, and won't until probably tomorrow afternoon, but I will get to it.
In the meantime, it should be pointed out that atheism and altruism aren't antithetical, and to argue otherwise is an excluded-middle fallacy.
(July 11, 2015 at 3:08 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Greed kills religion in terms of violence, suffering, and evil promulgated. Greed.
What's scary is that greed lies deeper in the human psyche than religion. You can eliminate religion altogether, and you will still have wars over resources, land, financial systems, market strategies, productive zones, slave labor, food supply, and so on -- and all of those devolve into greed when you really boil it down.
I disagree with your notion that religion is the biggest factor in violence and poverty, and I look forward you essaying your support for it.
IMHO, religion is just the most common excuse, not reason, for the greatest catastrophes. Without religion, 9/11 would still have happened, the Inquisition would still have happened, the Crusades would still have happened and so on. Bad people are just bad, without rhyme or reason. The biggest problem with religion is the effect of my personal liberties.
I agree that it is often a fig leaf, but I do think that it fully instigated several wars. I don't think you should have included the Crusades in your list, myself, and the Inquisition's inclusion seems questionable as well. Both of those instances had deep religious motivations, although the Inquisition also had greed as a factor (stemming from property seizure).
(July 11, 2015 at 8:02 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: I don't have to. You can't support your statement, whereas I can, fairly easily. Your on an atheist forum after all, not an altruistic one.
Actually, I can support it, by pointing out the wars over time that were driven by resource competition as opposed to those caused by religious schism or enmity. I don't have the time to do that in detail right now, and won't until probably tomorrow afternoon, but I will get to it.
In the meantime, it should be pointed out that atheism and altruism aren't antithetical, and to argue otherwise is an excluded-middle fallacy.
No, you still can't and couldn't. Resource competition is not necessarily driven by greed. Sometimes it's unavoidable, whereas religious competition is not.
And while we're at it, I don't think you can support this statement either, unless you're a certified neuroscientist:
Parkers Tan Wrote:What's scary is that greed lies deeper in the human psyche than religion. You can eliminate religion altogether, and you will still have wars over resources, land, financial systems, market strategies, productive zones, slave labor, food supply, and so on -- and all of those devolve into greed when you really boil it down.
I agree that atheism and altruism are not antithetical. I never meant to say such a thing. I only meant that we are here mainly to discuss about the impact of religion on the world, not greed, and that is why I might be more likely to be able to support my side of the argument than you yours. I think you got what I meant but decided to play the stupid card anyway. If I will continue to get the impression that, in fact, you are doing so, I will stop replying to you alltogether.
(July 11, 2015 at 9:45 am)IATIA Wrote: IMHO, religion is just the most common excuse, not reason, for the greatest catastrophes. Without religion, 9/11 would still have happened, the Inquisition would still have happened, the Crusades would still have happened and so on. Bad people are just bad, without rhyme or reason. The biggest problem with religion is the effect of my personal liberties.
I agree that it is often a fig leaf, but I do think that it fully instigated several wars. I don't think you should have included the Crusades in your list, myself, and the Inquisition's inclusion seems questionable as well. Both of those instances had deep religious motivations, although the Inquisition also had greed as a factor (stemming from property seizure).
I disagree somewhat. The Crusades were after land. Although religion was very much a part of it, without any religion, they may well have still gone after the land. The Inquisition was mainly about control. IMHO.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
I doubt they would have gone after Jerusalem and the supply lines to support that campaign absent the religious motivation. If it were solely, or even mainly, about land, they would have fabricated a pretext again another, much closer land, I think.
