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Does God only work through Magic?
#1
Does God only work through Magic?
That seems to be a 'learn-ed' man's silly perception. That once 'science' can explain a 'natural phemona' works it can no longer be of God. My question to you is why is that? Why can't 'science' be the how God does what He does, rather than the so called 'proof' their is no God?

If you think about it for a moment God is the creator of the NATURAL Universe. Which means He would have been the being who put all of the laws that govern how everything works into place. The same laws we are recording and giving our own names and titles to. So if this is the case why would God create a universe that He has to move or circumvent the natural laws inorder to make something happen. Not to say God can circumvent the natural world, if He wanted, but why would you create something that you have to circumvent everytime you want something done??? If it is in your power to create something that will only in the end lend itself to you and your end game wouldn't that be smarter?

Let's say God did that very thing. that He created the universe we the laws and processes that we will eventually come to know, label and eventually manipulate our selves to some degree. Does the fact that man will eventually understand the processes of God mean that the men in the time of the bible would understand how God does what He does? Does it mean the priest of the dark ages will understand how God does what He does? And does this somehow ultimately mean that once we begin to understand how God does what He does that some how this precludes the existence of God?

Their is a 'preacher' story I once heard that illustrates this idea well. It is about 3 mice who lived in the home of a master pianist. here is the summary:
 When the fist mouse in he thought the house was just magical and would produce wonderful music on it's own.

Then the second mouse came along did not accept the magic house answer and went exploring and found the piano, he went back and scoffed at the first mouse and said it wasn't magic it was this big black cabinet that was producing the music.

Then the third mouse came along and not satasifed with what the first to mice found went to this big black cabinet and went in side when the music was playing to see row after row of tightly wound strings being struck by a series of small wooden hammers. He watch this process of hammers hitting strings for hours. Now full convinced he had found the absolute source of the music he went back and ridiculed the first two mice for their ignorance, and then went on to describe the inner workings of the piano in great detail.

Of the three which mouse had it 'right?'

None of them did. Even after the third mouse's complete observation of the inner workings of said piano he was not any closer to the source of the music than the other two. In the end the third mouse could only describe the mechanism use by the source of the music to produce it. 'Science' or rather the idea that 'science' disproves or removes God from how things work is that third mouse.
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#2
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
Instead of shifting the burden of proving that "God" couldn't do these things, how about some indication that it could - or dare I say it, did?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#3
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
Drich, listen carefully, it's very simple.

Prove. It.
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#4
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
A god that works through the natural laws and our understanding of science is indistinguishable from a god that simply does not exist.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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#5
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
Yes, a deity could work the way you describe; however, it would seem silly/cruel of him to expect that people worship him under those same conditions. In your analogy, the pianist isn't expecting the mice to worship him. You can make a case for a deist type of god that leaves his/her creation alone after setting things in motion but it is a big jump from there to the type of god described in Christianity.
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#6
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
(June 23, 2015 at 9:28 am)Drich Wrote: Why can't 'science' be the how God does what He does, rather than the so called 'proof' their is no God?
Science simply is a way to try to understand how things work. Science does not prove or disprove god at any point, because that is not its aim. If scientific research into a particular phenomena were to turn up god as the answer, then that is the answer. They may continue to research that phenomena because that's how we further our knowledge and understanding. But there is no reason that science could not show god as the answer to any particular question. The fact that it has not done so (in spite of so many scientists being believers throughout the centuries) is very telling in itself, but it is not a failing of science. Nor is it due to science trying to disprove god.

Drich Wrote:So if this is the case why would God create a universe that He has to move or circumvent the natural laws inorder to make something happen.
That seems like a question for a theist to contemplate, not a scientist. Once we place god outside of the natural world, any attributes can be assigned to him. He can be outside of space and time. He can be powerful enough to create a massive and expansive universe and write its laws while not being subject to them. He can violate those laws at will with only the specific consequences he desires. And if we are stumped by what seems to be an illogical conclusion, we simply admit that his ways are a mystery to us.

What can we do with such a being? There literally are no rules that we can apply to it, so that we can determine that it should do one thing or another, or that anything we discover is or isn't proof of his existence. Science can only continue to learn about the things we can actually study. And if god never shows up during that journey, we must reach a conclusion. Some of us decide that it means he isn't there. Some of us decide that he's there, but can't be seen via conventional means because of what I described in the previous paragraph. Which of those seems more reasonable?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#7
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
(June 23, 2015 at 9:28 am)Drich Wrote: That seems to be a 'learn-ed' man's silly perception. That once 'science' can explain a 'natural phemona' works it can no longer be of God. My question to you is why is that?

That's not actually how it works.  It starts by someone not being able to explain a natural phenomena and claiming god/ghosts/aliens/magic did it, then it gets explained and it turns out the god/ghosts/aliens/magic didn't do it.

It doesn't start out by an atheist just sat on his own thinking well I know how this lamp works so God definitely doesn't exist.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#8
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
God can do anything that can also be explained through natural means, but nothing that can't be explained through natural means.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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#9
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
Can evolution explain how an idiot like drich can post here? No? Therefore God.
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#10
RE: Does God only work through Magic?
It's funny, because God had no problem circumventing natural law back in the day. Now that scientific observation is valued, education is higher and recording devices are prevalent, suddenly this all-powerful deity is relegated to working through natural means. What would you expect us to conclude?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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