Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[abaris]

I have to admit, I get a chuckle out of the idea that Yahweh's master plan involved duping some poor schmuck who looked like him.  How many buckets of popcorn did they go through in heaven as they watched the Romans flay and crucify the wrong guy?

The life of Brian goes down that road - pretty much.

[Godscreated]

Christianity is about faith in what Jesus has done for us, then we come to understand through belief as revealed by God, so that we can know for certain the truth of Christ our savior.

GC

[FatAndFaithless]

So where does evidence come in?

[Minimalist]

G-C does not require evidence.  He believes......


Takes all kinds, you know.

[Randy Carson]

Fact 1: Jesus died by crucifixion

As atheist Tim O'Neill points out here, there are two ancient, non-biblical authors whose references to the crucifixion of Jesus that are beyond question: Josephus and Tacitus. I'll begin with those.

Josephus (AD 93-94)

“At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.” (Antiquities XVIII, 63 from Josephus: The Essential Writings by Paul L. Maier, page 264-265; this text is from An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications by S. Pines [Jerusalem, 1971]; another translation of above found in Van Voorst, page 97; for a different version of the text infamously interpolated by later Christian editors, see discussion in Van Voorst, page 85ff; also full discussion in A Marginal Jew, volume 1 by John P. Meier, pages 56ff)

This text, which definitely mentions Jesus and his crucifixion under Pilate by a well-known Jewish historian of the first century, is hotly disputed because of possible later 'Christian interpolation'; however, the version given above is a translation of the Arabic text which does not contain the 'Christian' additions.

Tacitus (AD 116)

“Therefore, to put down the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits and punished in the most unusual ways those hated for their shameful acts [flagitia], whom the crowd called 'Chrestians.' The founder of this name, Christ, had been executed in the reign of Tiberius by the procurator Pontius Pilate. Suppressed for a time, the deadly superstition erupted again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but also in the city [Rome], where all things horrible and shameful from everywhere come together and become popular. Therefore, first those who admitted to it were arrested, then on their information a very large multitude was convicted, not so much for the crime of arson as for hatred of the human race. Derision was added to their end: they were covered with the skins of wild animals and torn to death by dogs; or they were crucified and when the day ended they were burned as torches. Nero provided his gardens for the spectacle and gave a show in his circus, mixing with the people in charioteer's clothing, or standing on his racing chariot.” (Annals of Imperial Rome 15:44)

Christ is definitely mentioned here by a major Roman historian as being 'the founder' of Christianity and as 'executed in the reign of Tiberius' under Pontius Pilate. As Tim O'Neill notes:

"This clear reference to Jesus, complete with the details of his execution by Pilate, is a major problem for the Mythicists.  They sometimes try to deal with it using their old standby argument: a claim that it is a later interpolation.  But this passage is distinctively Tacitean in its language and style and it is hard to see how a later Christian scribe could have managed to affect perfect second century Latin grammar and an authentic Tacitean style and fool about 400 years worth of Tacitus scholars, who all regard this passage and clearly genuine."

In addition to these two authors, several others from the first and second century must be taken into consideration.

Mara bar Serapion (ca. AD 73)

“What advantage did the Athenians gain by murdering Socrates, for which they were repaid with famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, because their country was completely covered in sand in just one hour? Or the Jews [by killing] their wise king, because their kingdom was taken away at that very time? God justly repaid the wisdom of these three men: the Athenians died of famine; the Samians were completely overwhelmed by the sea; and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, are scattered through every nation. Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the new laws he laid down.” (Letter in Syriac to his son; Van Voorst, page 54)

While Jesus is not named, and 'wise king' is not a common Christological title, there is little doubt that the author is speaking here of Jesus because the loss of the Kingdom of the Jews coincides with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple while the "new laws he laid down" refer to the doctrines of the Christian faith.

Further, it was well known that Pilate ordered a sign to be hung on the cross above Jesus' head which read "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" in several languages. Mara, a Jew in captivity, was writing to his son, and he speaks of this 'wise' Jew as a king...echoing Pilate's own words. The fact that Mara probably doesn't mention Jesus directly is understandable because it was the Romans who desolated and dispersed the Jews; Mara does not want to offend his captors.

Lucian of Samosata (c. AD 150)

“The Chrisitians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their noble rites, and was crucified on that account…You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they were converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13)

The Talmud (c. AD 175)

"On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged" (The Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a).

Other citations from Thallus (via Julius Africanus), Pliny the Younger, Emperor Trajan, and Seutonius provide additional support and corroboration of the existence of the man, Jesus. However, the passages listed above provide the clear and unambiguous evidence that Jesus died by crucifixion. On the strength of this evidence, the majority of scholars acknowledge this as a fact.

[Minimalist]

Fuck...around we go in the circle of xtian desperation.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-5467-pos...#pid107365


Josephus, in spite of the desire of xtian assholes to believe is unknown to any xtian writer prior to the 4th century when dear old Eusebius, xtian minster of propaganda suddenly trumpeted it when it became apparent that your fucking godboy had made no mark on history.

[KevinM1]

Lol, does he really? That's cute

Too much naughty language and meanies. You guys are just a bunch of guttersnipes.

Heh, if that's not a clear indication of how shaky his stance is, nothing is.

[tokutter]

Christianity is about faith in what Jesus has done for us, then we come to understand through belief as revealed by God, so that we can know for certain the truth of Christ our savior.

GC

yeah thats right...........in this religion..........first ju get da fait.........den ju get da baleef........den ju get da truf.......den ju get da women....

GODSCHILD........ladies and gentlemen.....THE TONY MONTANA OF CHRISTIANITY.




.

[KevinM1]

Christianity is about faith in what Jesus has done for us, then we come to understand through belief as revealed by God, so that we can know for certain the truth of Christ our savior.

GC

Seems to me that we wouldn't need saving if your god did a better job baby proofing Eden, or didn't throw a hissy fit after the inevitable happened.

[Anomalocaris]

Christianity is about faith in what Jesus has done for us, then we come to understand through belief as revealed by God, so that we can know for certain the truth of Christ our savior.

GC

You realize knowing it for certain does not make something factual, right?

Your kind of certainty is a perception of the weak minded.  Fact is something all together different.