My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values

[CapnAwesome]

It's amazing how popular this idea that everything is rooted in selfishness is. This idea only works though if you expand the definition of selfishness so much to the point the word becomes meaningless.

I don't think it's that complicated at all. But, perhaps to sort through an obvious objection you have to this philosophical point of view, you could provide the alternative to this theory which you feel is clearly a better explanation for moral values in human beings. 

And, by the way, I never, not even in the slightest, tried to pass this theory off as my own, hence, the words "supporting POV" in the thread title.

Well my alternative point of view is that human actions are inspired by multiple things, selfishness only being one and probably just a small part of it.

I actually have a pet belief of mine that boredom is probably the key motivator in the universe. Even for myself, and I would say I rank way above average in the selfishness department, far more of my actions are inspired by boredom than selfishness. Am I conversing with you on these forums because I am selfish? No.

[smax]

Your spider metaphor doesn't work for me at all.
I welcome them in my house along with my many centipedes (all of which I have named "Bob.")
They are my commando assassins in a never ending battle against six legged invaders.
Sadly, many of them have to hunt in the open which leaves them vulnerable to injudicious squashing.
But never by me.
I do wish the web spinners would clean up their projects when they are done using them.

Well Julia, thank you for providing a selfish reason to counter my point about spiders. I did, however, introduce exceptions like you earlier in the discussion. 

[smax]

I don't think it's that complicated at all. But, perhaps to sort through an obvious objection you have to this philosophical point of view, you could provide the alternative to this theory which you feel is clearly a better explanation for moral values in human beings. 

And, by the way, I never, not even in the slightest, tried to pass this theory off as my own, hence, the words "supporting POV" in the thread title.

Well my alternative point of view is that human actions are inspired by multiple things, selfishness only being one and probably just a small part of it.

I actually have a pet belief of mine that boredom is probably the key motivator in the universe. Even for myself, and I would say I rank way above average in the selfishness department, far more of my actions are inspired by boredom than selfishness. 

Have you considered that the actions you take because of boredom are in the pursuit of self interest? I mean, that seems like an obvious cause and effect. 

Am I conversing with you on these forums because I am selfish? No.

I'd argue that you are, in fact, conversing on these forums for reasons of self interest. Or, is it your argument that you get absolutely nothing out of this at all. No mental or intellectual stimulation. No satisfaction of your curiosity about the thoughts and beliefs of others. No reinforcement of some of your own thoughts and values. 

You would argue that your presence here is a complete act of selflessness?

[CapnAwesome]

Well my alternative point of view is that human actions are inspired by multiple things, selfishness only being one and probably just a small part of it.

I actually have a pet belief of mine that boredom is probably the key motivator in the universe. Even for myself, and I would say I rank way above average in the selfishness department, far more of my actions are inspired by boredom than selfishness. 

Have you considered that the actions you take because of boredom are in the pursuit of self interest? I mean, that seems like an obvious cause and effect. 

Am I conversing with you on these forums because I am selfish? No.

I'd argue that you are, in fact, conversing on these forums for reasons of self interest. Or, is it your argument that you get absolutely nothing out of this at all. No mental or intellectual stimulation. No satisfaction of your curiosity about the thoughts and beliefs of others. No reinforcement of some of your own thoughts and values. 

You would argue that your presence here is a complete act of selflessness?

This is a very good example of my point. You've just made the definition of self-interest include everything. If the definition of self interest is so broad as to cover the entire motivation of curing boredom much less anything that provides mental stimulation, then it's a useless phrase that just means 'everything you do' rather than anything useful at all.

[smax]

I think self-interest may be a better term for what the OP describes, anyway.  Selfishness implies individualistic greed.  Self-interest is different.  It is in my self-interest to live in a thriving community and to do my part to help make it that way.  And that means doing my part to fit in, partake in and/or offer services, etc.

I'd agree that people would probably more comfortable with the term self interest, and I certainly have no objection to that term being used in it's place. They are basically one and the same. 

But, even then, self-interest doesn't drive every action.  Empathy is a big player as well.  It's what drives charity, and is a huge component in interpersonal relationships.  Sure, there may be some long term benefit towards helping someone, but most people don't think like that.  They simply see someone in need and work to help them, regardless if it's financial help, physical work, a shoulder to cry on, or simply being there to listen.

How many people do you think are charitable and like to help people and yet do not have any expectation of, in the very least feeling better about themselves as a result? And, for many others, there are even more significant motivations at work, like personal recognition or having someone feel like they owe them an unspoken debt of some kind. 

When you say most people "don't think like that", surely you know that is a very naive generalization, right? Do you really believe that people, in general, operate without an agenda of some kind or at least on some small level?

[Iroscato]

I would argue that empathy, with all it's evident limitations, is the product of selfishness. 

Then you would seem to have a very poor grasp of it.

Do you have empathy for the spider or an ant or a cockroach? And, while we are at it, do you really think you empathize with even all human beings?

Yes, hence why I don't make a habit of squishing them, and often help spiders and moths out of the house when I can. As for humans, yes I do, because I happen to be one of them and automatically come equipped with, and I feel I must bold it this time...empathy. I really had little choice in the matter, it was hard-wired into my DNA.

Would you say that you empathize with Adolf Hitler, trying to imagine how he felt right before he killed himself?

To a point, yes. I am capable of empathising with even the likes of Hitler and Stalin to a certain extent.

And, even you do offer empathy in all those things, would you argue that your empathy is typical of the human condition?

I truly hope it is, and I see examples of this daily. There are terrible things committed in the world daily by terrible people, and yet there is good to balance that. More good than evil, in my opinion.

Most likely the answer to all of these questions is no, and clearly the answer is no to the last question. 

Incorrect, see above.

So, with that, it's hard to argue that empathy is at the root of moral values.

It really isn't old chap.

[smax]

Have you considered that the actions you take because of boredom are in the pursuit of self interest? I mean, that seems like an obvious cause and effect. 



I'd argue that you are, in fact, conversing on these forums for reasons of self interest. Or, is it your argument that you get absolutely nothing out of this at all. No mental or intellectual stimulation. No satisfaction of your curiosity about the thoughts and beliefs of others. No reinforcement of some of your own thoughts and values. 

You would argue that your presence here is a complete act of selflessness?

This is a very good example of my point. You've just made the definition of self-interest include everything. If the definition of self interest is so broad as to cover the entire motivation of curing boredom much less anything that provides mental stimulation, then it's a useless phrase that just means 'everything you do' rather than anything useful at all.

The whole point of the theory and this discussion is to examine the root of moral values. And, it sounds like, as you examine the root of your own actions, you are coming to realize that selfishness (self-interest) is at the root. 

People also associate the word "selfish" as socially negative and as something commonly accepted as an unappealing characteristic. Therefore, in the pursuit of self interest, the word "selfish" is naturally rejected by the self serving individual.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thanksgiving is LITERALLY the celebration of Native American slaughter.

No, it isn't.

[CapnAwesome]

Thanksgiving is LITERALLY the celebration of Native American slaughter.

No, it isn't.

Haha, I never take anything literally that someone says literally in front of. Much less LITERALLY.

[CapnAwesome]

This is a very good example of my point. You've just made the definition of self-interest include everything. If the definition of self interest is so broad as to cover the entire motivation of curing boredom much less anything that provides mental stimulation, then it's a useless phrase that just means 'everything you do' rather than anything useful at all.

The whole point of the theory and this discussion is to examine the root of moral values. And, it sounds like, as you examine the root of your own actions, you are coming to realize that selfishness (self-interest) is at the root. 

People also associate the word "selfish" as socially negative and as something commonly accepted as an unappealing characteristic. Therefore, in the pursuit of self interest, the word "selfish" is naturally rejected by the self serving individual.

I definitely do not find selfishness at the root of my own actions. Even though I'm a selfish person, most of my actions are done out of boredom, or an effort to combat boredom and my moral values come from a wide myriad of places. It's not a 'selfish' thing to deal with one's own boredom because there is no selfless alternative. It's not more selfish or selfless to remain bored. Selfishness has nothing to do with it and I think you and the other people who make this argument are just inserting selfish motivations everywhere where there are none. What I am finding more and more is that you've expanded the definition of selfishness to the point of ridiculousness. If Squashing a spider, not squashing a spider, eating a dog and not eating a dog are all selfish actions than it's a pointless definition that can be used on anything. NOT that everything is selfish.