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Progressive Christianity
#21
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:03 pm)robvalue Wrote: Thanks for your answer Smile It's a much more realistic and balanced view of the bible than I am used to hearing.

What makes you think any of it is true (above some historical facts that can be verified), in particular the supernatural elements? Or are you sceptical of those?

Do you think Jesus was just a man?

I'm not trying to be critical, just curious!

I don't mind your questions.  Thanks for the encouragement! What makes me think it is true?  I want to clarify that I feel there is a difference between "thinking the bible is true" and finding truth in it. I see some truth in the bible the same way you might see truth in any other book, movie, poem, song, or correspondence.  I don't think the bible has a monopoly on truth, and I think we see some great examples of untruth in it. 

I think in the bible, if we step back, we see an arc - practically starting with an understanding of god as a Janus-faced, violent, blood thirsty asshole.  We see a slow, progressive arc toward understanding God as nonviolent entity. [sidebar: penal substitution atonement theory is the idea that god demanded the sacrifice, and Jesus stepped in in our place - I do not ascribe to that].  I believe that we demanded the sacrifice of Jesus, and that he was a forgiving victim of that sacrifice (as are many, many people of many cultural and religious backgrounds).
Supernatural events - I think much of mythology and scripture is a record of how earlier peoples attempted to explain forces they may have not understood, and definitely could not control.  I don't take it literally, so I'm pretty comfortable admitting much of it is myth and there may not have been any supernatural events, ever.
Was Jesus just a man...I'm kind of in a funny spot with that right now.  I've been trying to define my understanding of divinity. I guess the short answer is that I don't think it matters. My theology doesn't require him to be a deity.

(July 2, 2015 at 1:55 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Okay - without embarrassing our new arrival - Wiki shows this as


Quote:Progressive Christianity is a form of Christianity which is characterized by a willingness to question tradition, acceptance of human diversity, a strong emphasis on social justice and care for the poor and the oppressed, and environmental stewardship of the Earth.

You know..the type that Mike Huckabee and the rest of the republitards think are commies!

[Image: huckabee.jpg]

Oh, Huckabee, you sad, sad man.  Thanks for finding that wiki def. I would say that fits me fairly well.
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#22
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:02 pm)cercatorius Wrote:
(July 2, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: So.....can you explain what it means be a progressive christian?

I think that there is a broad spectrum. I'm rather in the process of deconstructing right now, to be honest. At the moment, I'm neck deep in Rene Girard's theories on mimetic theory and reevaluating my beliefs in that context.  I very much enjoy his ideas on violence and sacrifice and their place in religion.  I believe Jesus to have been someone who was more fully in touch with his own humanity than I am. His teachings offer a good guideline for me to step out of rivalry with others and hopefully evolve in my treatment of others, and also myself.

This borders on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, but unless there's something in there about believing that Jehovah is the one true god (that actually exists) and that Jesus is his son (that actually existed), "progressive christianity" doesn't sound like it's actually christianity by definition. If this belief is not present within progressive christianity (meaning progressive christians believe those are figures of myth rather than extant beings), then progressive christianity probably isn't the best term; it should probably instead be called atheistic christianity. In that case, it would be like atheistic satanism, which holds the character of satan as an example and literary embodiment of human will and nature rather than an actual spiritual force that "really" exists.


It sounds like you're trying to use the Bible more as a philosophical framework, recognizing it as myth but feeling it serves as a good source of literary and philosophical value. If that's true, why limit yourself to the Bible, and why still call yourself christian? Why not cherry pick personal value from anything you read, religious text or otherwise? Much of literature has positive lessons to be gleaned. Since I've already mentioned atheistic satanism, are you familiar with the 9 Satanic Sins and the 11 Laws of the Earth? To me, those provide a much stronger, more defensible, and more contemporary moral direction than most anything you'd find in the christian bible.


In what ways do the teachings of Jesus reinforce the ideas of unity and harmony? Sure, he talked about love and forgiveness a lot, but he also said that he came not to bring peace but a sword, to turn families against each other, and that any who don't believe in him should be brought before him and slain. He was also mean to his mother a lot. If only some of what he said can be taken as a good example, then how is he different than any other preacher, thinker, or philosopher from history, and why single him out as the framework for a belief system? Why not take what's good from him and move on in your journey for knowledge?
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)

Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
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#23
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Okay.. before you all jump on the bashing bandwagon train please know that Cercatorius is my friend, first and foremost. So, if you would all PLEASE show a bit of restraint and understand that I invited her here because we don't have enough knowledgeable theists here and of the ones that are here - they either preach, try to convert, spin fantastic tales of bullshit or they engage in a circle jerk of arguments that seemingly go nowhere.

I wanted her here because, I appreciate the views she has given. She has stood up for me and MY views when several of the fundies on my facebook friends list chose to bash me for my opinions and thoughts. She gets it. She really does and if you all just give her a chance, you might come to understand that.

I think she can fend for herself Judi. Why so worry?
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#24
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:15 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: First, I don't appreciate being told how to interact on the forum. If I see bullshit, I might call it out, and that's my prerogative.

Yep. And someone's views being criticized =/= that someone being criticized

Bsides, we're all cute and fluffy Smile
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#25
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Okay.. before you all jump on the bashing bandwagon train please know that Cercatorius is my friend, first and foremost. So, if you would all PLEASE show a bit of restraint and understand that I invited her here because we don't have enough knowledgeable theists here and of the ones that are here - they either preach, try to convert, spin fantastic tales of bullshit or they engage in a circle jerk of arguments that seemingly go nowhere.

I wanted her here because, I appreciate the views she has given. She has stood up for me and MY views when several of the fundies on my facebook friends list chose to bash me for my opinions and thoughts. She gets it. She really does and if you all just give her a chance, you might come to understand that.

It's okay, Judi.  Smile  Most people have been treated like shit by people claiming to be Christians, more often than not. Christians make ridiculous claims and use their religion as an excuse to form oppressive, exclusive communities.  Contemporary Christians are often found appropriating other cultures, not giving two shits about humans who don't fall in line with their holiness code, and attempting to impose their theology on anyone they can find. This seems like a really great community for support, idea sharing, and evolution of thought. I understand why members here are reticent to welcome someone that might be from any christian camp, even progressive.  I'm protective of my communities, too.
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#26
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:24 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Bsides, we're all cute and fluffy Smile

Sharks are all that ain't they?
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#27
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:15 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:
(July 2, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Okay.. before you all jump on the bashing bandwagon train please know that Cercatorius is my friend, first and foremost. So, if you would all PLEASE show a bit of restraint and understand that I invited her here because we don't have enough knowledgeable theists here and of the ones that are here - they either preach, try to convert, spin fantastic tales of bullshit or they engage in a circle jerk of arguments that seemingly go nowhere.

I wanted her here because, I appreciate the views she has given. She has stood up for me and MY views when several of the fundies on my facebook friends list chose to bash me for my opinions and thoughts. She gets it. She really does and if you all just give her a chance, you might come to understand that.

First, I don't appreciate being told how to interact on the forum. If I see bullshit, I might call it out, and that's my prerogative.

Second, it's nice you appreciate her views and that she's stood up for you.  That doesn't mean anything to the rest of us except that it's a nice thing to do. It doesn't mean her views are any less batshit than anyone else's.

Why don't you do you, let her do her, and let me be me?

First - I didn't tell anyone how to interact on the forum. I made a request. There's a difference. Note the usage of the word "PLEASE".  I posted my thoughts because *I* felt some others on here were being a little too hard. That is all. But it seems like right off the bat, the condescending attitudes start. All I asked is that people give her a chance. Also, I did not call anyone out on it. It was a general request, not targeting anyone in particular. Guess that was asking for too much? No?
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work.  If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now.  Yes, I DO want fries with that.
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#28
RE: Progressive Christianity
Hey, people can believe in the Tooth-Fairy for all I care just so long as they keep their bullshit out of our schools and laws.  I can see where the fundies will not react well to this, though.

As H.L. Mencken noted:


Quote:There is no possibility whatsoever of reconciling science and theology, at least in Christendom. Either Jesus rose from the dead or he didn’t. If he did, then Christianity becomes plausible; if he did not, then it is sheer nonsense.
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#29
RE: Progressive Christianity
No probs Smile I appreciate your answers!

It's refreshing to hear a Christian call the OT god like it is. I get so tired of hearing all the slavery and rape apology in a desperate attempt to paint an evil character as a good one.

I have no problem with drawing inspiration from a book, certainly. What baffles me is when people just accept that all the magic stuff written in it actually happened without question. It sounds like you're rather out from under that spell, and are investigating for yourself!

We've had a lot of interesting discussion about Jesus from an atheist perspective, regarding the subject of if such a historical character actually existed at all. Most people seem to think that he did, but those who've studied it in detail admit the points of coincidence with the character in the story are very few and far between. I'm more of the opinion that he is most likely an amalgamation of various people around at those times, the popular mythology, and some straightforward fiction (particularly regarding fulfilling prophecies).
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
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#30
RE: Progressive Christianity
(July 2, 2015 at 2:21 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:
(July 2, 2015 at 2:02 pm)cercatorius Wrote: I think that there is a broad spectrum. I'm rather in the process of deconstructing right now, to be honest. At the moment, I'm neck deep in Rene Girard's theories on mimetic theory and reevaluating my beliefs in that context.  I very much enjoy his ideas on violence and sacrifice and their place in religion.  I believe Jesus to have been someone who was more fully in touch with his own humanity than I am. His teachings offer a good guideline for me to step out of rivalry with others and hopefully evolve in my treatment of others, and also myself.

This borders on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, but unless there's something in there about believing that Jehovah is the one true god (that actually exists) and that Jesus is his son (that actually existed), "progressive christianity" doesn't sound like it's actually christianity by definition. If this belief is not present within progressive christianity (meaning progressive christians believe those are figures of myth rather than extant beings), then progressive christianity probably isn't the best term; it should probably instead be called atheistic christianity. In that case, it would be like atheistic satanism, which holds the character of satan as an example and literary embodiment of human will and nature rather than an actual spiritual force that "really" exists.


It sounds like you're trying to use the Bible more as a philosophical framework, recognizing it as myth but feeling it serves as a good source of literary and philosophical value. If that's true, why limit yourself to the Bible, and why still call yourself christian? Why not cherry pick personal value from anything you read, religious text or otherwise? Much of literature has positive lessons to be gleaned. Since I've already mentioned atheistic satanism, are you familiar with the 9 Satanic Sins and the 11 Laws of the Earth? To me, those provide a much stronger, more defensible, and more contemporary moral direction than most anything you'd find in the christian bible.


In what ways do the teachings of Jesus reinforce the ideas of unity and harmony? Sure, he talked about love and forgiveness a lot, but he also said that he came not to bring peace but a sword, to turn families against each other, and that any who don't believe in him should be brought before him and slain. He was also mean to his mother a lot. If only some of what he said can be taken as a good example, then how is he different than any other preacher, thinker, or philosopher from history, and why single him out as the framework for a belief system? Why not take what's good from him and move on in your journey for knowledge?

There's a lot of questions there.  I don't limit myself to just Christianity. I agree that there are many venues for truth and goodness and that they should be explored.  I haven't delved into satanic laws and sins - that's an accurate assumption on your part.  I'm not really sure why, other than a bias of discomfort with the idea - a throwback from my personal history and prejudice. (not defending, just being honest about where I find myself) Jesus may not be any different than any other preacher or teacher or philosopher.  I think we as a race have sacrificed many wonderful people, and that he is not unique in that.  I don't know that atheistic Christianity would fit as a label for my beliefs. I do believe there is a creative force, although I fall more closely in line with process theology; it may be more powerful than I am, but not all powerful. I'm not sure if you're asking me about my personal thoughts on Jesus and violence or interactions with his mother - I'll forgo addressing those unless you specifically ask me to. I don't want to cross a preachy line at all here.  I do hear a lot from atheists that I cannot label my beliefs as Christian if I do not ascribe to contemporary conservative Christianity (although I'm not sure you went that far Wink ).  That's a frustrating experience for me, because I believe conservative Christianity to be an entirely different theology and community than what I follow and belong to.
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