Will Humans Have Freewill in Heaven?

[Godscreated]

Yes they are one and the same, it doesn't matter who discovered the hoax, it was taught as fact in schools for many years, so why should we trust those who would deceive our children to advance their idea of the world by deception.

GC

Indeed, it was a mistake, but here is the core difference.

When a secular establishment discovers a mistake it readjusts itself accordingly and we all benefit from now knowing what is most likely to be true.

When a fundamentalist establishment finds out it makes a mistake it lies, blackmails, shrieks hysterically and refuses to move an inch.

Why should we not trust those who pursue truth if not more than any less than those who don't care if what they teach is true or not?

The fact remains those who used this tactic to deceive knew they did it and they let it go for years, so what else is out there that is being hidden so it can be taught as real evidence. You all don't seem to understand what was done is as bad as what you say Christians are doing. No one wins on either side when deception is used.

GC

[Godscreated]

Yes they are one and the same, it doesn't matter who discovered the hoax, it was taught as fact in schools for many years, so why should we trust those who would deceive our children to advance their idea of the world by deception.

GC

The entire point is that:

1. Science is about presenting the best possible answer to the evidence in front of us.
2. Science is, inherently, self-correcting.

Why wasn't that skull examined by other scientist and scrutinized before it made it into school books, why, because it push an agenda, if evolutionary scientist actually cared this thing would have never made it that far, where was the so called peer review. You all go nuts if a Christian makes a mistake and it's not immediately brought to light. How many people actually knew this skull was a fake, I do not know but I would bet more than most would want to admit.

Do some people try to deceive others?  Sure.  Science isn't fool proof.  No one here has ever claimed that.  The thing is, science, which is a process, naturally weeds out bad answers and/or evidence if done properly (meaning, that they actually follow the scientific method with honesty).  That such deceptions are caught are a testament to how the process works.

The same goes for Christianity there are a multitude of deceivers and they give reputable Christian churches and organizations a bad name with the secular world because you all want to lump all of Christianity into the worst parts you can find, even when Christians denounce these bad actions. Now you want me to treat you and the evolutionary science you believe in differently than you treat Christianity. Why? Why should I trust evolutionary science, the piltdown skull is just part of the deception, many others have been found out and these scientist are slapped on the hand and told you've been a bad boy. How do I know that they weren't told next time do a better job and don't get caught. Could it be that Christian scientist didn't find this deception because they are not allowed to examine these things, tell me I'm wrong.
The piltdown skull wasn't a bad answer, don't try and reduce this out right deception to something like a bad answer, bad answers are involved in test.

Want a more recent example?  Look at the guy who put forth that famous bogus study about vaccinations causing autism.  Because science is peer-reviewed, other scientists looked at his study.  Over time, it became clear that he either ran a poorly designed study, or cooked the books.  After a host of other scientists lambasted him for his study, he admitted it was a fraud.  Yeah, it took some time.  Science, again, is a process.  Refutations and corrections don't happen in the blink of an eye.  But, it was, ultimately, corrected.

I'm very aware of this, I'm also aware that parents are upset because it could have caused their children their lives, to many scientist want to make a name for themselves instead of helping humanity they bring harm. How many children died because this wasn't peer review before being made public, ultimately was this worth the life of even one child.

You're really overstating the case of deception.  The vast, vast majority of scientists are honest.  Science is based on honesty and openness.  The results are always up for peer review, which often means other scientists repeating the experiment.  Because the results are subjected to such rigorous review, the vast majority of scientists aren't going to attempt to lie or deceive.  And those that are foolish enough to try are caught.  Maybe not immediately, but they're still caught.

No, I'm not over stating the deception of the piltdown skull, it was a blatant deception to only bring notice to particular scientist and it wasn't reviewed correctly or it wouldn't have gotten by others. I know a scientist who's a Christians and he can't even get a peer review, how fair is that, he wants one so that his work can have a chance to be known, but no it want be looked at simply because it might refute some accepted science, this is not what I call good science, it's rigged for an agenda. Until secular science changes the way it operates I will always look at some of it with great doubt. I have no doubt that many scientist are honest, but when a scientist does bad, bad things do result, this is no way to operate. I have nothing against good science and fair science, science has brought us a long ways, especially in the medical field.

So, why should we trust them?  Because they're the best we have.

Sometimes the best is just not good enough, when ego is thrown into the mix it will taint the work and could cause great harm. This isn't like cheating at a card game, deceptions in science can cause great harm and worse. I actually like science, but for the most part I'm against space missions until we can feed the world and with the money spent on space exploration many children could have been feed and alive today, instead they are buried and mothers grieve the loss. With this said I still made sure to see the latest on the Pluto mission, I'm amazed at the amount of intelligence it took to pull this off, however I still can't help to think of all the starving children that money could have feed and how many mothers would not be grieving. It is the well to do that benifit from this type of science and the poor who suffer because of the same.
GC

[Metis]

Indeed, it was a mistake, but here is the core difference.

When a secular establishment discovers a mistake it readjusts itself accordingly and we all benefit from now knowing what is most likely to be true.

When a fundamentalist establishment finds out it makes a mistake it lies, blackmails, shrieks hysterically and refuses to move an inch.

Why should we not trust those who pursue truth if not more than any less than those who don't care if what they teach is true or not?

The fact remains those who used this tactic to deceive knew they did it and they let it go for years, so what else is out there that is being hidden so it can be taught as real evidence. You all don't seem to understand what was done is as bad as what you say Christians are doing. No one wins on either side when deception is used.

GC

Considering that as a gay man many Christians believe I should be put to death as a Satanist I think getting a few facts about a skull wrong pales in comparison quite frankly.

The scientists admitted they were mistaken and made improvements, this is something believers never do. That's why we're not mad about the scientists getting it wrong, they've admitted it. I don't see any apologies circulating regarding young earth creationism and the utter stupidity behind it.

There is a side winning GC and it has been for some decades now, but it's not yours.

[Godscreated]

The fact remains those who used this tactic to deceive knew they did it and they let it go for years, so what else is out there that is being hidden so it can be taught as real evidence. You all don't seem to understand what was done is as bad as what you say Christians are doing. No one wins on either side when deception is used.

GC

Considering that as a gay man many Christians believe I should be put to death as a Satanist I think getting a few facts about a skull wrong pales in comparison quite frankly.

The scientists admitted they were mistaken and made improvements, this is something believers never do. That's why we're not mad about the scientists getting it wrong, they've admitted it. I don't see any apologies circulating regarding young earth creationism and the utter stupidity behind it.

There is a side winning GC and it has been for some decades now, but it's not yours.

After all I posted to you in my last post and that's all you can say. I do not know any Christians that would want you dead, I certainly don't. You are still defending the piltdown skull deception, you say they admitted they were mistaken they deliberately put together a skull of a with a modern human skull and an orangutan jaw, that's not a mistake it is a complete deception, it was done on purpose. Why can't you see this, is your bias in the way.

GC

[Metis]

Considering that as a gay man many Christians believe I should be put to death as a Satanist I think getting a few facts about a skull wrong pales in comparison quite frankly.

The scientists admitted they were mistaken and made improvements, this is something believers never do. That's why we're not mad about the scientists getting it wrong, they've admitted it. I don't see any apologies circulating regarding young earth creationism and the utter stupidity behind it.

There is a side winning GC and it has been for some decades now, but it's not yours.

After all I posted to you in my last post and that's all you can say. I do not know any Christians that would want you dead, I certainly don't. You are still defending the piltdown skull deception, you say they admitted they were mistaken they deliberately put together a skull of a with a modern human skull and an orangutan jaw, that's not a mistake it is a complete deception, it was done on purpose. Why can't you see this, is your bias in the way.

GC

Is it any greater a deception than the removal of several books such as Wisdom and Tobit from the Protestant Biblical cannon to support the notion of faith alone instead of Faith and Good works? The Orthodox have more OT books, so do the Catholics, so do the Oriental Orthodox...Just you guys who took out a few that didn't suit you. You're really not very well placed to talk about deception.

I'm really not biased at all GC, I just think this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Scientists do not claim to be infallible unlike your young earth creationists or your interpretations of the Bible.

[Godscreated]

After all I posted to you in my last post and that's all you can say. I do not know any Christians that would want you dead, I certainly don't. You are still defending the piltdown skull deception, you say they admitted they were mistaken they deliberately put together a skull of a with a modern human skull and an orangutan jaw, that's not a mistake it is a complete deception, it was done on purpose. Why can't you see this, is your bias in the way.

GC

Is it any greater a deception than the removal of several books such as Wisdom and Tobit from the Protestant Biblical cannon to support the notion of faith alone instead of Faith and Good works?

What deception this was done in full view of the public and there are Protestant churches that believe in faith and works for salvation. The Bible we use today has been put together by the best people from all the Protestant churches. I see what you're trying to do is to shift things away from the piltdown skull and many other deceptions of evolutionary science. That skull was deliberately fabricated to push an agenda, this is bias at it's worse.

The Orthodox have more OT books, so do the Catholics, so do the Oriental Orthodox...Just you guys who took out a few that didn't suit you. You're really not very well placed to talk about deception.

 Again any removal of books from the Orthodox and Catholic Bibles was done by men from many different denominations some of those denominations still believe in works. All this was done in clear view of the public, no deception was planed and if people from the Protestant denominations that want to use the other Bibles can purchase these Bibles anywhere. They can use them to compare. On the other hand we had one skull put together for the purpose of deception, without most people being able to compare it with another or examine it. Those who did have the opportunity to examine the skull either didn't or bought into the deception, or they were just not very good scientist to miss the obvious. 

I'm really not biased at all GC, I just think this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Scientists do not claim to be infallible unlike your young earth creationists or your interpretations of the Bible.

You need to argue this with the denominations who have used deception, I do not deceive and my explanations of scriptures here have not been successfully countered, when I have an opinion about certain scriptures or doctrines I say so. You can't use the kettle and pot deal with me because I do not deceive. Have you ever in all honesty read and studied what young earth scientist put out, I mean really studied their work.

GC 

[TubbyTubby]

Considering that as a gay man many Christians believe I should be put to death as a Satanist I think getting a few facts about a skull wrong pales in comparison quite frankly.

The scientists admitted they were mistaken and made improvements, this is something believers never do. That's why we're not mad about the scientists getting it wrong, they've admitted it. I don't see any apologies circulating regarding young earth creationism and the utter stupidity behind it.

There is a side winning GC and it has been for some decades now, but it's not yours.

After all I posted to you in my last post and that's all you can say. I do not know any Christians that would want you dead, I certainly don't. You are still defending the piltdown skull deception, you say they admitted they were mistaken they deliberately put together a skull of a with a modern human skull and an orangutan jaw, that's not a mistake it is a complete deception, it was done on purpose. Why can't you see this, is your bias in the way.

GC

For fucks sake GC, we get the fucking piltdown skull thing. You're focussing on one episode that is no way representative of scientific methods and you fucking know it. How about turning your new found critical investigation skills to your own bullshit religion?

[Godscreated]

After all I posted to you in my last post and that's all you can say. I do not know any Christians that would want you dead, I certainly don't. You are still defending the piltdown skull deception, you say they admitted they were mistaken they deliberately put together a skull of a with a modern human skull and an orangutan jaw, that's not a mistake it is a complete deception, it was done on purpose. Why can't you see this, is your bias in the way.

GC

For fucks sake GC, we get the fucking piltdown skull thing. You're focussing on one episode that is no way representative of scientific methods and you fucking know it. How about turning your new found critical investigation skills to your own bullshit religion?

Well don't you get angry when someone points out the lies and deceptions of evolutionary scientist, maybe if they learned to be good little boys and girls things like this wouldn't happen. What was done was to deceive you as well as the rest of the world, they thought no more of you than they did anyone else.

GC

[TubbyTubby]

For fucks sake GC, we get the fucking piltdown skull thing. You're focussing on one episode that is no way representative of scientific methods and you fucking know it. How about turning your new found critical investigation skills to your own bullshit religion?

Well don't you get angry when someone points out the lies and deceptions of evolutionary scientist, maybe if they learned to be good little boys and girls things like this wouldn't happen. What was done was to deceive you as well as the rest of the world, they thought no more of you than they did anyone else.

GC

Hardly angry, utter frustration perhaps. Stick to your book of immoral make believe GC, you don't deserve science.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Considering that as a gay man many Christians believe I should be put to death as a Satanist...

Personal experience or has some institution publicly stated such a policy, i.e. put to death + Satanism.