LISTEN, CHRISTIANS!

[Huggy Bear]

You've gotten one thing right...it IS simple. A being who created the universe out of nothing and to who you owe your whole existence, IS reason alone to accept him as your "lord and superior" (the two are synonymous).

Yeah, shockingly, I'm not convinced by "nuh uh, though!"  

Add to that, the fact that he was willing to take on human form and suffer horribly, so that he could adopt you as a son and sit with him in his throne, is even more reason to accept him as your (lord and superior).

I don't particularly think so; the incredibly circuitous and unnecessary nature of that sacrifice- why does forgiveness require a blood sacrifice at all?- is pretty obvious to anybody looking at the story objectively.

God has to keep his laws or he's not God. Are you confused when someone kills and eats an animal? No, because you are familiar with the concept of something having to die in order for you to live. The natural world and the spiritual world operate by the same concept, your spirit needs food also.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

Jesus IS the word of God made flesh (And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us - John 1:14) which is why Jesus stated that he is the bread that came from heaven.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
- John 6:51

In order for you to partake of that bread and live eternally, he had to die.

Yes, when I was a child. But when I grew up I realized my parents were simply human, with flaws just like me, not some superior form of life. My relationship with them is one derived from our interactions, not some fiat demand for respect. I feel like this is pretty analogous with how I would treat a god.

But I also have a perfect counterexample to the weird assumptions you're making here: my biological father isn't around anymore. I don't speak to him, I don't think about him, I pretty much despise him. He earned all of that- the nerves in my right hand will never recover from what he did to me- but that's pretty much the point; he earned the way I look at him via his actions. He wasn't granted some assumed lordship over me, his actions dictated his fitness to be around me, and frankly, if you had been around when I was a kid and knew what he was like, I have little doubt that you would absolutely have reached out to help me. You're not a monster, I don't think, I hope that knowing that an adult is being violent with a child would prompt you to consider that maybe that adult isn't fit to raise one. I don't think your response would be "well, he's his father, he gets to do that," would it?

That got a little heavy, but the point I'm making is that we determine our relationship with our parents ourselves, we don't come at them over this predetermined road map. It's the same with god; I consider the sort of person he is before deciding what I want to do with that information. In the case of the christian god, I simply can't get past all the omnicide and turning people to salt; you have all these excuses for why it had to be that way, but sorry, I don't buy them. Probably you think that makes me wrong, which is expected, but it's not illogical for me to hold a position I think is true, even if you don't; the only way it'd be illogical for me to hold that position is if I secretly thought you were right but held my position anyway, which simply is not the case.

I was speaking mainly from a child's perspective, because eventually you'll grow into adulthood and become equal or surpass you parent in knowledge. With God on the other hand, you'll always remain infantile, you could never hope to be equal with an infinite being. Which is why I say by that very nature he IS your superior.

As for your biological father, you feel that way because of how your father treated you personally, what has God done to you personally to reject him?

Authority isn't some objective force you can take possession of, it's something granted by others, either grudgingly or willingly. God may have power over me, in that his supernatural abilities can make me do stuff (although you guys often appeal to free will, indicating that he won't) but that doesn't mean I have to endorse him. Maybe Yahweh's stomping around all "might makes right," like the caveman you seem to think he is, but me, as I am now, with my own mind and morals, cannot bring myself to approve of that being. It is inconsistent with my moral character to do so; I will not follow a killer.

Authority is power, plain and simple. You all tend to think that God was some psycho killer but forget he walked on the earth in human flesh...

And you find this god, whom you literally compared to a criminal, to be moral?

You know, "my god can force you to do what he says," is not an argument against my position here. It's not my position that I'm somehow strong enough to resist god, just as there are plenty of earthly violent bullies I doubt I could resist; yes, I can be forced to do things by entities with sufficient power to do that. Still doesn't change the fact that I cannot legitimately believe that god is moral, or superior to me in any respect other than his power. Maybe he can make me do stuff, force me to cooperate, but he can't change my mind that way. And if he does change my mind, either supernaturally or through torture, then he's just brainwashing me; that's not me in there anymore.

All things being equal, the me that exists now could not accept your god, especially after what you've just said about him. I can believe that he exists, given sufficient evidence to do so, but to actually believe that he's my superior? No, can't do it. And nothing he forces me to do, without literally altering the contents of my mind, will make that belief any more likely. In fact, it'll make it less so, because I happen to lump dictators in with killers in terms of things I can't believe are moral.

I wasn't comparing God to a criminal, I used a criminal as an example to show that you complying with his demands has nothing to with his moral character.

[Huggy Bear]

That is because they have closed minds. Perhaps it's their refusal to understand logic and reason, instead accepting blind faith and stories from a book of fairy tales about some imaginary sky daddy who will send you to hell if you don't believe.

It's hard for them to accept what we say because all our words are filtered through thoughts of "What will people think of me if I acknowledge that what these atheist say makes sense?" "What will happen to my ministry?" "I'll never get my wife to accept this. She's in Christian ministry for the money and doesn't care if it's true or not so I'd better reject what the atheists say to save my marriage." "I've put too much mouth into Christianity. I can't back out now."

How can  they hear us, much less think about what we're saying with all this cacophony going on in the background?

You presume way too much....

[Rhondazvous]

If they made murder, rape and theft legal tomorrow, I would carry on doing those things at the exact same rate I do now. I don't need fairy tales or laws to stop me doing hurtful things. It scares me that some people think their religion is all that is stopping them from being a raging psychopath. At least 9 times out of 10 they would be wrong of course, it's part of the brainwashing to make you think you need it.

And the irony is if murder, rape and theft became legal, it's the Christians who wouldn't find anything in the bible to keep them from doing these things.

In the bible god actually became angry at the Israelites when they had mercy on the people he'd told them to kill. Rape is not a crime against woman but against their husbands and as for theft, well the Earth is the lord's and the fullness thereof, so if you're an unbeliever then god told me to take what you have anyway.

Some women at church actually told me that I didn't have to keep a promise to an unbeliever. Talk about one more nail in the coffin of my faith and this huggie cat puts flesh on a horse's skeleton just so he can keep beating it.

[Huggy Bear]

Some women at church actually told me that I didn't have to keep a promise to an unbeliever.

So you attended a messed up church, your point? or are you seriously trying to lump every church in to one group.

[Longhorn]

Oh, but Randy? Don't think I missed you agreeing with this louse back there. That's disappointing; we might disagree, but I always figured you as having some modicum of intelligence to go with that.

Huggy pointed out some of the responses that people have posted which appear to contradict the "I'm not angry at God" position that many claim. I said thanks. Big whoop.

But it occurs to me why it's so important for folks in this forum to deny being angry at God...because that unveils them as actually believing that He exists. How can you be angry at something that simply doesn't exist?

Now, don't get me wrong (like that's not gonna happen anyway), I know that there are quite a few members of the forum who are not angry atheists. You can tell by their calm, casual responses and posts that they are simply not all wound up. They're just few and far between, aren't they?

Others (and I would probably include you in this group, frankly) are REALLY aggressive and pissed off. Or am I completely wrong about you?

Maybe we're reacting strongly because we get this condescending, misrepresenting shit from you and other theists A LOT, and it ain't nice having words put in your mouth by someone who is only looking to feel superior?

As I've explained, the responses quoted by Huggy were answers to a hypothetical question. The posters made a moral judgement of a fictional character they don't believe exists and concluded that their moral code would not let them worship him. They can't be mad at a character that they don't believe is real, and I severely doubt any of them does. I don't believe anybody here is a closeted maltheist, secretly believing in god and holding some psychotic hateful grudge against him.

I don't know why you're ignoring what I say. You've already accused me of being mad at god once, so I guess you're talking about me.

And I'll repeat, just in case you didn't get it the first three times: I don't blame your god, your church, or anyone for what happened with me.

I'm repeating myself because it matters to me that my opinions are properly understood and not strawmanned....again. so for fuck's sake, quit telling us what we believe.

[Joods]

Oh for fucks sake, and again, more proof that theists just fail to listen. Again, I really wish these damn theists would have enough respect for the atheists here and realize that no matter what you say or how much you preach, you are on an atheist forum. Your opinions are seriously outnumbered here. It's fine to debate and theorize and speculate about the possibilities of what "could be", however, when you start projecting your opinions and telling an atheist what your supposed god is going to do and that the atheist MUST follow or obey or whatever other adjective you choose to use, then we're gonna have a problem.

You can argue until you're blue in the face. Fact is - we are NOT angry at your god. He doesn't exist to us, therefore we can't be angry at him. Can we be angry at those who preach the undocumented and unverified "word" of god? Sure. Because you just won't shut the fuck up about trying to push your crap on us.

[Esquilax]

God has to keep his laws or he's not God. Are you confused when someone kills and eats an animal? No, because you are familiar with the concept of something having to die in order for you to live. The natural world and the spiritual world operate by the same concept, your spirit needs food also.

But god, being god, would also be able to change those laws. He's supposedly all powerful, right? If he can't change them, he's constricted by rules that surpass him in power and, in many ways, make him less capable than I; simple things that I can do, like forgiving without needing a blood sacrifice, are apparently impossible for god? And yet you'll still call him superior to me?

I was speaking mainly from a child's perspective, because eventually you'll grow into adulthood and become equal or surpass you parent in knowledge. With God on the other hand, you'll always remain infantile, you could never hope to be equal with an infinite being. Which is why I say by that very nature he IS your superior.

Stop conflating power with character; god may be more powerful, but his character as revealed in the bible is far less mature than my own. You want to talk about infantile? Your god lashed out and killed Lot's wife because she didn't do exactly what he wanted down to the most minute detail.

As for your biological father, you feel that way because of how your father treated you personally, what has God done to you personally to reject him?

Um, he killed almost my entire species by drowning? He cursed me with mortality for the crimes of another that I could not possibly have averted or had a hand in? He arranged affairs so I would have to deal with you?

Hypothetically, of course. I know you like that word.

Authority is power, plain and simple.

Then I have no particular interest in the self serving nature of your game. You can't talk about free will and how god wants us to come to him by choice out of one side of your mouth, and then construct a hypothetical in which he's just going to force me to out of the other. You do remember the initial question, right? "If you knew god existed, would you unconditionally accept him as your god?" If free will is as big a figure as you guys make it out to be then "no" is a valid answer, but you keep responding to those answers by asserting something else that isn't present in the initial question, which is that god is going to force us to accept him. If that's what you think is going to happen then the answer, for everyone, is "yes," but that doesn't mean anything. You've essentially turned the question into meaningless pablum more rightly posed as "if you knew that god existed, and he forced you to accept him unconditionally with his power, would you accept him unconditionally?" It's completely circular.

You all tend to think that God was some psycho killer but forget he walked on the earth in human flesh...

... And menaced the moneylenders with a whip, while introducing the concept of eternal hell into christian theology. Human flesh houses a lot of psychos, Huggy, I don't know why you think "he walked in human flesh" somehow disqualifies him from being psychotic.

I wasn't comparing God to a criminal, I used a criminal as an example to show that you complying with his demands has nothing to with his moral character.

And your assertion is that one should comply with the demands of any being more powerful than you, regardless of the content of those demands or the character of the aggressor? Just knuckle under and accept it, every time?

Are you aware of how many social justice movements would have withered on the vine and died had people taken that approach? Do futile gestures in the name of justice so lack nobility to you?

[IATIA]

This is a discussion forum.  All are entitled to express their opinions.  If there were no theists or deists here, there would never be mention of a god.  As it is however, there are theists and deists here and therefore, discussions will abound about god.  For sake of argument we sometimes treat this non-existent entity as though it were real.  Without this treatment, the discussions would simply all end in;

"There is no god.  End of argument.  Get over it."

Sometimes, in the heat of the discussion, emotions come into play and your god is really a fucking tyrannical misanthrope, so treating it as an existent deity does bring out the "We hate your god" syndrome.

When reading a well written book or a well done movie, it is easy to get emotional and develop an extreme dislike for some of the characters and relish in their demise, but once the movie is over or the book is read, the characters no longer exist and the 'hate' is gone.  When we leave the forum, we do not go on a "We hate god" rampage, but rather we forget it until next time.

So while we are here discussing your non-existent deity, you can rest assured that we do have a 'non-existent' dislike for your fucking tyrannical misanthrope.

[KevinM1]

This is a discussion forum.  All are entitled to express their opinions.  If there were no theists or deists here, there would never be mention of a god.  As it is however, there are theists and deists here and therefore, discussions will abound about god.  For sake of argument we sometimes treat this non-existent entity as though it were real.  Without this treatment, the discussions would simply all end in;

"There is no god.  End of argument.  Get over it."

Sometimes, in the heat of the discussion, emotions come into play and your god is really a fucking tyrannical misanthrope, so treating it as an existent deity does bring out the "We hate your god" syndrome.

When reading a well written book or a well done movie, it is easy to get emotional and develop an extreme dislike for some of the characters and relish in their demise, but once the movie is over or the book is read, the characters no longer exist and the 'hate' is gone.  When we leave the forum, we do not go on a "We hate god" rampage, but rather we forget it until next time.

So while we are here discussing your non-existent deity, you can be assured that we do have a 'non-existent' dislike for your fucking tyrannical misanthrope.

I take umbrage at the notion of the bible being a well written book.

[IATIA]

I take umbrage at the notion of the bible being a well written book.

I never said or insinuated it was. The statement was a metaphor or analogy. (I sometimes get them confused and spending time with some of these theists does not help.)