atheism and children

[Catholic_Lady]

You're missing the point. It's not that ______ is unnatural, so ______ is immoral because it is unnatural. It's that _______ is sacred, so taking it out of a sacred context is immoral because it's sacred. Yes, the sacred context in this case is marital sex, which is a "natural" thing. But it's not because it is natural that it's the right venue for creating life. It's the right venue for creating life because it's sacred. (though I should note that for something to be sacred it means it has a supernatural component to it. I'm saying marital sex is natural here for the sake of the discussion, but we believe it to be more than that.)

And you're actually making my point by reasserting this position. You are employing the naturalistic fallacy without even knowing it and, as I said before, cloaking the fallacy in religious language.

Why is male-female sex the appropriate moral way to conceive a child? Because, as you have already said, God deems it sacred.  So here is another question: How, then, do you know God deems it sacred if it's not due to the sheer fact that prior to the advent of modern medicine the only way to conceive was through male-female sex?

The point is, to you it's just religious language. To me, it's something that's actually real. I believe sacredness is real. I believe God is real. That makes all the difference in the world when it comes to this issue. 

Answer: Because by definition, things can only be sacred if they come from God. IVF is a man made procedure.

[Ravenshire]

And you're actually making my point by reasserting this position. You are employing the naturalistic fallacy without even knowing it and, as I said before, cloaking the fallacy in religious language.

Why is male-female sex the appropriate moral way to conceive a child? Because, as you have already said, God deems it sacred.  So here is another question: How, then, do you know God deems it sacred if it's not due to the sheer fact that prior to the advent of modern medicine the only way to conceive was through male-female sex?

The point is, to you it's just religious language. To me, it's something that's actually real. I believe sacredness is real. I believe God is real. That makes all the difference in the world when it comes to this issue. 

Answer: Because by definition, things can only be sacred if they come from God. IVF is a man made procedure.

(emphasis is mine)

You have evidence that your gawd didn't guide those human doctors hands to provide a method for otherwise infertile couples to conceive children of their own?!?

[Clueless Morgan]

Answer: Because by definition, things can only be sacred if they come from God. IVF is a man made procedure.

That doesn't answer my question, it just turns it into a circular argument: "how do you know a thing is sacred? Because god says its sacred. why does he say it's sacred? Because its sacred!!"

I'm not asking whether male-female sex is sacred (you've already said that is what you believe), I'm asking how you know God deems it sacred? Is your position entirely reliant on what the RCC says? On something else? If its based on the RCC, how do you know theyre not relying on the naturalistic fallacy to justify their postion? If its something else, what is that other thing?

[Thumpalumpacus]

It doesn't matter where in the body the new life ends up attaching itself, especially since there is nothing we can do to prevent this from happening. If the conception happened through the lovemaking between husband and wife, it still happened through its rightful context.

But Christians seemingly value life conceived through lovemaking over life conceived via rape, insofar as the majority opinion regarding abortion is concerned. Is abortion always wrong -- i.e., do rape-children have the same right to life, in Christian parlance -- or is it okay to abort a rape-child but not a love-child?

I've always found that difference in thought astounding, myself, and indicative of a hierarchy of value.

[Catholic_Lady]

Answer: Because by definition, things can only be sacred if they come from God. IVF is a man made procedure.

That doesn't answer my question, it just turns it into a circular argument: "how do you know a thing is sacred? Because god says its sacred.  why does he say it's sacred? Because its sacred!!"

I'm not asking whether male-female sex is sacred (you've already said that is what you believe), I'm asking how you know God deems it sacred?  Is your position entirely reliant on what the RCC says?  On something else?  If its based on the RCC, how do you know theyre not relying on the naturalistic fallacy to justify their postion?  If its something else, what is that other thing?

It is based on RCC teaching on faith and morals, which I believe to be guided by God.

It also makes sense to me personally that human life is sacred and so is the love between husband and wife in which this new life is created.

[Catholic_Lady]

It doesn't matter where in the body the new life ends up attaching itself, especially since there is nothing we can do to prevent this from happening. If the conception happened through the lovemaking between husband and wife, it still happened through its rightful context.

But Christians seemingly value life conceived through lovemaking over life conceived  via rape, insofar as the majority opinion regarding abortion is concerned. Is abortion always wrong -- i.e., do rape-children have the same right to life, in Christian parlance -- or is it okay to abort a rape-child but not a love-child?

I've always found that difference in thought astounding, myself, and indicative of a hierarchy of value.

How a person was conceived has no bearing whatsoever on their worth. Children conceived through rape, conceived out of wedlock, or conceived through IVF, are no different in any way from children conceived through a loving marriage.

We believe abortion is never ok because it is the killing of a human life, and all human life is equal in value and dignity.

[Thumpalumpacus]

...And that is exactly the gap between me and the rest of you, and why it is difficult for you to understand my views.

You think "a penis in a vagina" is just some little thing that you can compare to the color of a pill. We think it's an incredibly sacred, holy, spiritual thing.

If you'd left out the phrase "the rest of you", this reply wouldn't bug me.

Plenty of us atheists also think that lovemaking is indeed a precious thing. That doesn't sanctify the child, though. Is not the child of rape equally worthy?

The analogy of colored pills was only an analogy. It is not indicative of anyone's views about the conceived child, and it's a little unfair of you to insinuate otherwise.

[Thumpalumpacus]

But Christians seemingly value life conceived through lovemaking over life conceived  via rape, insofar as the majority opinion regarding abortion is concerned. Is abortion always wrong -- i.e., do rape-children have the same right to life, in Christian parlance -- or is it okay to abort a rape-child but not a love-child?

I've always found that difference in thought astounding, myself, and indicative of a hierarchy of value.

How a person was conceived has no bearing whatsoever on their worth. Children conceived through rape, conceived out of wedlock, or conceived through IVF, are no different in any way from children conceived through a loving marriage.

We believe abortion is never ok because it is the killing of a human life, and all human life is equal in value and dignity.

Yet plenty of Christians, and yes many Catholics, argue against abortion "except in the case of incest or rape". That is clearly a hierarchy of values. Do you agree with that exception? Do you think abortions should be outlawed to every woman under every circumstance? If so, how do you weigh the life of the fetus against that of the mother?

If not, what are your cutoffs, in terms of personal values? Why is it okay to abort one fetus but not another? Aren't they all sacred?

[Catholic_Lady]

...And that is exactly the gap between me and the rest of you, and why it is difficult for you to understand my views.

You think "a penis in a vagina" is just some little thing that you can compare to the color of a pill. We think it's an incredibly sacred, holy, spiritual thing.

If you'd left out the phrase "the rest of you", this reply wouldn't bug me.

Plenty of us atheists also think that lovemaking is indeed a precious thing.  That doesn't sanctify the child, though. Is not the child of rape equally worthy?

The analogy of colored pills was only an analogy. It is not indicative of anyone's views about the conceived child, and it's a little unfair of you to insinuate otherwise.

My apologies, PT. That is the impression I got, of which I was clearly wrong.

I do believe all humans are equal in worth, regardless of how they were conceived.

[Catholic_Lady]

How a person was conceived has no bearing whatsoever on their worth. Children conceived through rape, conceived out of wedlock, or conceived through IVF, are no different in any way from children conceived through a loving marriage.

We believe abortion is never ok because it is the killing of a human life, and all human life is equal in value and dignity.

Yet plenty of Christians, and yes many Catholics, argue against abortion "except in the case of incest or rape". That is clearly a hierarchy of values. Do you agree with that exception? Do you think abortions should be outlawed to every woman under every circumstance? If so, how do you weigh the life of the fetus against that of the mother?

If not, what are your cutoffs, in terms of personal values? Why is it okay to abort one fetus but not another? Aren't they all sacred?

Absolutely, they are all sacred.

Any Catholic that argues against abortion "except in cases of rape" is blatantly going against very fundamental Church teaching, which states that abortion is always wrong. I agree with the Church that abortion is always wrong and never understood the rape argument myself. The life of an unborn human being is wroth just the same as the life of his or her mother, which is worth the same as the life of every other person.