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What to say to Grandma?
#31
RE: What to say to Grandma?
I suppose "Fuck off, grandma" is out of the question?
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#32
RE: What to say to Grandma?
I wouldn’t get into a battle, because then, you’re making yourself, and I guess in grandma’s eyes, making atheists look even worse. I would just kindly ask her (if you feel it gets to that point) do you think I’m bad? Do you think that I’m evil? Why do people that don’t believe in god = something bad in your eyes? I wouldn’t really do that until you thought it was absolutely necessary though.
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' -Isaac Asimov-
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#33
RE: What to say to Grandma?
(September 2, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: MTL, if her grandmother cannot handle the truth, then cosmowanderer has already made a mistake in telling her grandmother that she is an atheist.  If her grandmother is made of porcelain and will break, then keeping her atheism to herself would have been best.  So, assuming that it was not a mistake to tell her grandmother that she is an atheist, I would (if I were in her situation) talk to her whenever she brings up the topic.  And if my grandmother could not handle such things, I never would have told her in the first place.  Doing this sort of thing halfway is generally a recipe for a bad outcome, a constant source of vexation for all concerned.

Pyrrho,

I just went back and read the OP and I saw nothing indicating that cosmowanderer ever told her grandmother that she was an atheist.

In fact, she repeatedly states how she avoids such topics, and even declines to respond to baiting.
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#34
RE: What to say to Grandma?
(September 2, 2015 at 3:14 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: I wouldn’t get into a battle, because then, you’re making yourself, and I guess in grandma’s eyes, making atheists look even worse. I would just kindly ask her (if you feel it gets to that point) do you think I’m bad? Do you think that I’m evil? Why do people that don’t believe in god = something bad in your eyes? I wouldn’t really do that until you thought it was absolutely necessary though.

I doubt her grandmother thinks her granddaughter is "evil",

rather, she just wants to save her granddaughter's soul from Hell,
or perhaps she is just a controlling grandmother who chose religion as the vehicle to manipulate her family members,
or perhaps she thinks of herself as one of God's Warriors, or something...

...and, really, she probably just wants what most Theists want

....validation, by having others agree with them.
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#35
RE: What to say to Grandma?
(September 2, 2015 at 3:27 pm)MTL Wrote:



Pyrrho,

I just went back and read the OP and I saw nothing indicating that cosmowanderer ever told her grandmother that she was an atheist.

In fact, she repeatedly states how she avoids such topics, and even declines to respond to baiting.

Her grandmother found out somehow (see post #10), so if her grandmother is too fragile for conversation about it, she did not do a good enough job keeping her atheism a secret.

When one tells people things, one cannot untell them, and one cannot stop them from telling whoever they wish to tell.  Those facts should always be kept in mind before one chooses to start telling people things.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I would engage her grandmother in conversation about it.  Others, of course, may act as they wish, and certainly she should think about the specifics of her situation when deciding what to do.

I don't think the problem is going to go away on its own.  Sometimes, it is good to have unpleasant conversations sooner rather than later, and then if her grandmother decides that she does not want to talk about it, she can stop bringing it up.

At this point, cosmowanderer does not have the option of keeping her opinion about god to herself, as that is already known by her grandmother.

Of course, she could start pretending that she is a theist again, but I would not normally recommend that.  But, of course, it all depends on all of the specific details.

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#36
RE: What to say to Grandma?
(September 2, 2015 at 4:19 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:
(September 2, 2015 at 3:27 pm)MTL Wrote:



Pyrrho,

I just went back and read the OP and I saw nothing indicating that cosmowanderer ever told her grandmother that she was an atheist.

In fact, she repeatedly states how she avoids such topics, and even declines to respond to baiting.

Her grandmother found out somehow (see post #10), so if her grandmother is too fragile for conversation about it, she did not do a good enough job keeping her atheism a secret.

When one tells people things, one cannot untell them, and one cannot stop them from telling whoever they wish to tell.  Those facts should always be kept in mind before one chooses to start telling people things.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I would engage her grandmother in conversation about it.  Others, of course, may act as they wish, and certainly she should think about the specifics of her situation when deciding what to do.

I don't think the problem is going to go away on its own.  Sometimes, it is good to have unpleasant conversations sooner rather than later, and then if her grandmother decides that she does not want to talk about it, she can stop bringing it up.

At this point, cosmowanderer does not have the option of keeping her opinion about god to herself, as that is already known by her grandmother.

Of course, she could start pretending that she is a theist again, but I would not normally recommend that.  But, of course, it all depends on all of the specific details.
Just because her grandmother found out her granddaughter is an atheist still doesn't mean that said granddaughter is obliged to discuss the matter.  She said she dodges the issue, so, as per my initial post, I suggest that she simply draw a line in the sand and insist that her grandmother respect it.

If she WANTS to engage her grandmother on the subject, by all means, she should do so.

I recommend against it, having battled my own family on the subject for decades.

But my point was, she doesn't owe her grandmother an explanation of her spiritual choices,
she is not obliged to put up with harassment if she doesn't want to discuss the issue.

Yes, by post #10 she had decided to offer a discussion on the matter to her grandmother,
but only after being pressured by grandma...initially, she wanted to tell grandma to "back off" without making her feel "attacked".


She asked for our input....that is my input.
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#37
RE: What to say to Grandma?
(September 2, 2015 at 4:23 pm)MTL Wrote: Just because her grandmother found out her granddaughter is an atheist still doesn't mean that said granddaughter is obliged to discuss the matter.  ...

Of course.  She does not have to discuss anything she does not wish to discuss.  But I do not think that refusing to discuss it is going to get the desired results.  I think the only way to stop her grandmother from bothering her about this is to either convince her grandmother that there is no god, or (and this is what I expect is more likely in most cases) make the conversation sufficiently unpleasant for her grandmother so that her grandmother will not want to bring up the subject.  Otherwise, what is going to stop her grandmother from bothering her for as long as she lives?

I think the most likely outcome of not talking about it will be that her grandmother continues to pester her about this until she is dead.

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#38
RE: What to say to Grandma?
(September 1, 2015 at 8:31 pm)cosmowanderer Wrote: How do I get her to back off without it being seen as me attacking her?

Not sure how to get her to back off, but to reduce the background noise you can always set up an e-mail filter to automatically delete any e-mails from her containing the word atheist.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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#39
RE: What to say to Grandma?
(September 2, 2015 at 4:35 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: I do not think that refusing to discuss it is going to get the desired results.  I think the only way to stop her grandmother from bothering her about this is to either convince her grandmother that there is no god, or make the conversation sufficiently unpleasant for her grandmother so that her grandmother will not want to bring up the subject.  Otherwise, what is going to stop her grandmother from bothering her for as long as she lives?

I think the most likely outcome of not talking about it will be that her grandmother continues to pester her about this until she is dead.

Ok, so we can agree to disagree.

I got the distinct impression that cosmowanderer initially, and repeatedly, tried to avoid the subject.

If she WANTS to get into it, power to her.

I would love nothing more than to see a discussion between a Theist family and an Atheist family member
result in the Theists either becoming Atheists, or at least retreating with their tails between their legs.

I would LOVE it.

but my experience says that this is not likely to be the outcome,
and cosmowanderer will come out the worse for it.

Not because she's wrong, but simply because Theism is stupid,
and there's no cure for stupid;

and because these are not merely Theists,
they are her family.

So we can disagree.

My advice is to shut the issue down and make it clear to her grandmother that she is doing so BECAUSE
A. She has boundaries that deserve respect too
B. She wants to preserve the relationship
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#40
RE: What to say to Grandma?
...then it will be up to grandmother to respect cosmowanderer's boundaries.

Any failure to do so that results in hurt feelings cannot be blamed on cosmowanderer,
who made it clear she did not want to get into it.

I think if she agrees to get into it,
she will be blamed for all the fallout that ensues.
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