What to say to Grandma?

[robvalue]

This may be useful: belief isn't a choice. Atheism isn't a choice. Even if you wanted to believe in Jesus being God or whatever again, that's not an option open to you. No amount of people telling you that you're wrong while providing no evidence for that opinion is going to change your beliefs. Also, if God is good, he'd be happy with you living a good life, and wouldn't require you to worship him to prove your worth. If he's not a good god, then why worship him?

If you're going to take action, my advice would be to say you don't want to talk about atheism/religion anymore with her, but you are happy to talk about other subjects. I think it's a perfectly reasonable request. If she refuses, she is being rude, and you're quite within your rights to ignore anything which breaks this request.

Personally I don't want a relationship with anyone, family or otherwise, who wouldn't respect my boundaries. I once had to very politely, then politely, then firmly request a relative stop going on about a particular issue.

But I don't know how you feel about it, nor how your gran would react to such a request.

[ignoramus]

I once had to very politely, then politely, then firmly request a relative stop going on about a particular issue.

Me too Rob.
Where I leave my dirty socks and underwear is nobody's business! Wives can be so funny at times, can't they?

[Pyrrho]

Update... she emailed me again, asking if I've changed my mind about being an atheist. I told her it's not really something I can just change my mind about, but if she would like to ask me any questions about it, she is more than welcome to. She replied saying she has no questions but that she wants me to change my mind before it's too late. Feeling a little pissed off, I replied letting her know that I have an open mind and that if I ever do find reason to believe again, I will, but that I've searched for god more than most people and have left no stone unturned or question unasked. I told her I feel atheism isn't an "option" I just whimsically chose, but the conclusion to an extensive decade-long search.

Given that it is out in the open and she wants to talk to you about religion, when she brings up the topic again, I would explain to her why I was an atheist if I were in your position.  And I think I would start sending her short essays about it whenever she sent me such things.  I rather like Bertrand Russell's essay "Why I am not a Christian," which can be found online.

I would keep that up until she stopped bothering me about it.  And if she resumed, I would again send her more such material.

[Divinity]

She probably sees it less as her religious duty to attack your atheism, but more a familial duty to 'save your immortal soul'. You might want to tell her that her attacks on your lack of belief aren't going to make you believe. I know it sounds fucking stupid, but she's worried about you in her own way. Something you might want to remember, at least if she's willing to stop with the anti-atheist emails.

[MTL]

Update... she emailed me again, asking if I've changed my mind about being an atheist. I told her it's not really something I can just change my mind about, but if she would like to ask me any questions about it, she is more than welcome to. She replied saying she has no questions but that she wants me to change my mind before it's too late. Feeling a little pissed off, I replied letting her know that I have an open mind and that if I ever do find reason to believe again, I will, but that I've searched for god more than most people and have left no stone unturned or question unasked. I told her I feel atheism isn't an "option" I just whimsically chose, but the conclusion to an extensive decade-long search.

Given that it is out in the open and she wants to talk to you about religion, when she brings up the topic again, I would explain to her why I was an atheist if I were in your position.  And I think I would start sending her short essays about it whenever she sent me such things.  I rather like Bertrand Russell's essay "Why I am not a Christian," which can be found online.

I would keep that up until she stopped bothering me about it.  And if she resumed, I would again send her more such material.

I must respectfully disagree.

Of course, like most Atheists and Agnostics,
I would of course usually be willing to discuss it with any interested parties.

But I have been in a very similar situation:

If she is anything like my grandmother,
then your grandma will, like many insecure Christians,
eventually get upset when you rattle her religious cage too much;

and THEN all the family will be ready to pile on to the "fight you started with Grandma"
and THEN "respect for your elders" and such like will find its way into the conversation.

Don't go there.  It is sadly a no-win situation.

Besides, you already have your answer:

you said that your Grandma said,

" (she) has no questions but that (she) wants me to change my mind before it's too late. "

There you go.

She has no interest in hearing your defenses.

She just wants your total and unquestioning compliance.

You cannot win in such a debate.


So, my personal suggestion is along the following lines, instead:

"Grandma,

I love you.  I always will.

I'm sorry that my beliefs upset you.
I know that it is out of your love for me that you pursue this issue.

But, regardless of your good intentions,
the fact remains:

You are not showing my beliefs
the same respect that I have always shown yours.

I should NOT have to choose between having your respect,
and having your love.

If we are to have a relationship,
we are going to have to simply agree to disagree,
and also PROMISE to not discuss the matter AT ALL, ever again.

I cannot, will not, and should not,
tolerate my boundaries being disregarded...even by you. "


If she still doesn't stop, try pointing this out:


" Grandma, with all due respect, I must ask you to also consider this:

My relationship with God (or lack thereof)
is actually none of your business.

It is between me, and god.  No-one else.  Not even grandma.

Even though you are my grandmother,
my soul is my own.

It does not belong to you.

I do not have to justify my spiritual choices to you.

Remember:  According to YOUR OWN belief system, Grandma,

This is a choice GOD GAVE TO ME

...it is not for you, nor anyone else, to make that choice for me,
(or to coerce me into making anything other than a SINCERE choice).

You have your OWN soul to choose to do with as you see fit;

You don't get to choose for my soul, as well,
just because I happen to be your grandchild.

I am your descendant....not your chattel. "

If she STILL doesn't back off:

" Grandma,

I don't know if this has ever occurred to you,
but to an Atheist, or possibly to ANY onlooker,
when you relentlessly pursue this issue,
one very loud message you may not realize that you are sending out, is this:

you obviously don't think God can touch my heart,
without YOUR help.

Do you not believe in the power of prayer?

Listen, if you want to pray for my soul, I don't mind.

But why not demonstrate your faith,
instead of talking about it?

Why not leave it in God's hands? "

[MTL]

Now, having said all that,

I don’t want to meet trouble halfway;
 
But if all of this still doesn’t do the trick,
THEN it will be time to ask her some hard questions:
 
“ Grandma,
 
1.       I need to know if you are going to consider it impossible to have a relationship with me,
if I NEVER convert to Catholicism?
 
2.      Conversely, I need to know if the ONLY way you can have a relationship with me,
 is to continue to relentlessly pursue this issue…so long as I remain an Atheist? “
 
If she is willing to accept that you will never convert,
AND she is willing to drop it and not bring it up again,
You can still have a relationship.
 
If she is NOT willing to accept that you will never convert,
Then it logically follows that she will continue to harass you for the rest of her life,
And it will then be up to YOU to decide if you think that is worth tolerating,
For the sake of keeping a relationship alive, with her
(even though it could not really be considered a “healthy” relationship, at that point).
 
If you decide that you can tolerate it….good luck to you.
You are a stronger and more tolerant person than I am.
 
But if you decide that you cannot, should not, and will not tolerate this boundaries being violated,
and realize you feel you have no choice but to end the relationship,
 
THEN there is another important question you MIGHT need, to ask of Grandma,
Depending on the type of psyche you have:
 
3.      “ Grandma, are you are going to hold ME responsible for the disintegration of our relationship,
if I refuse to convert to Catholicism, and also refuse tolerate continuing harassment about it? “
 
If she says “no, I realize it takes two to tango”
then kudos to her for at least owning her half of the responsibility for the breakdown of the relationship.
 
At that point, you can express your regret at having to part company,
and leave with at least the closure that she acknowledges
that you are not being treated as if you are solely responsible for the breakdown of the relationship,
Simply because you enforced your boundaries.
 
Now, you might be the kind of person who doesn’t need to address this issue;
 
But if you are the kind of person who is affected when unfairly blamed for everything,
then addressing this step will at least perhaps give you the sense
that she didn’t completely get away with this unfairness, unnoticed
 
…it sends the message that you know that she might try to blame you for everything,
but that you know it’s bullshit….you know perfectly well you didn’t deserve any of this,
…and now you know, that she knows, that you know!

[MTL]

 
But if she says “Yes, it is all your fault!  You are an unrepentant sinner and will burn in Hell!  You are an ungrateful, evil and disrespectful grandchild and you have broken my heart!  You are selfish and manipulative and you want it all your way and you are attacking my beliefs and you don’t know how to compromise! “
 
Then NOW is the real test of your maturity and mental strength:
 
If this is her response, do NOT waste any more time trying to convince her of her role and responsibility in the breakdown of the relationship, and do NOT take her words to heart:  YOU know those words of hers are bullshit that you do NOT deserve; you know she would be shirking her share of accountability, if she said something so unfair.
 
At that point, you just say,
 
“ I’m so sorry you feel that way.  If you ever change your mind, you can let me know.  I love you.  Goodbye. “
 
And you walk away, knowing you did everything in your power,
without sacrificing your own self-respect and your own boundaries,
which not only should you not HAVE to do…
 
…but ironically, if you DID compromise your own boundaries,
Thinking that you were being self-sacrificing for the sake of “being the bigger person”,
Not only would it change nothing,
But it would actually become ENABLING  behaviour at that point,
And you would only make her behaviour worse and worse.
 
I speak from experience.  Please heed me on this.  If you are ever tempted….do NOT enable.
 
You will only end up hurting both HER, and yourself, worse.

[MTL]

NOTE:  SOMETHING SUBTLE TO CONSIDER:
 
Your grandmother might be willing to back off and seemingly respect your beliefs.
 
But she may have backed off on the understanding that she can always
“pray for God to touch your soul” …without actually taking it upon herself to pester you.
 
That might be as good as you will ever get from her,
And it might be important for you to understand
that the only reason she is willing to do so is because:
 
She is able to reconcile herself with the idea of your beliefs, and her beliefs, simply being “different”
…because in her mind, that leaves a little “hope” that you might “eventually come around”.
 
AS LONG AS SHE DOESN’T PESTER YOU WITH IT,
…then if preserving the relationship is really important to you,
You may just want to let her think so!
 
But what I don't know is how profound your personal rejection of Religion, really is.

If you simply dislike it, that's fine.

However, if you are like me, you HATE religion and hold it responsible for much of the evil in the world.

IF YOU ARE OF THIS MINDSET,
but also want to preserve a relationship with your Grandmother,
and she is willing to respect your beliefs for the sake of preserving the relationship,too,
then the following is important to note:

If she were ever to discover that your beliefs, and her beliefs, are not merely “different”,
But are actually DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED….that might be a different ball of wax, altogether.
 
If she learned that you consider religion to be evil,
If she learns that you think SHE is the misguided one,
 
That might be the deal-breaker.
 
She might find that idea so hopeless, so offensive, so outrageous,
That she may well consider you “past all hope” ….and offensive, to both her, and to God, to boot.

[MTL]

Finally, I want to apologize for the wall of text.

It is a very complex issue and one I have personally wrestled with, in my family, for years.

it is important to stay calm and in-control, and to think very clearly.

you have to go slow, step-by-step, and not allow the issue to spiral out of control or become muddled.

So it is complicated, and I feel quite bad for posting so much text.

But it comes from the heart and I hope it helps you.

Good luck to you.

[Pyrrho]

MTL, if her grandmother cannot handle the truth, then cosmowanderer has already made a mistake in telling her grandmother that she is an atheist. If her grandmother is made of porcelain and will break, then keeping her atheism to herself would have been best. So, assuming that it was not a mistake to tell her grandmother that she is an atheist, I would (if I were in her situation) talk to her whenever she brings up the topic. And if my grandmother could not handle such things, I never would have told her in the first place. Doing this sort of thing halfway is generally a recipe for a bad outcome, a constant source of vexation for all concerned.