The Atheist Obsession with Insulting Christians

[Thumpalumpacus]

And what faith did the persecutors hold? The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian. Little good it did them in moral guidance.

Therefore what? The Germans invaded Poland and occupied France as part of the Great Commission to spread the Gospel? No. They did it out of an idolatrous worship of State power. The faith of the German populous was irrelevant.

You clearly missed my point, which is that Christianity is no guarantee of morality.

My own opinion is that technology has not made us more wise, but has relieved us of the economic burdens that compromised our moral judgement. It seems to me that industrialization allowed the abolition movement to take hold among other things. At the same time, I doubt the internet would have become such a force so quickly had it not been for the ease with which it allowed pornography to be distributed. So before we go attributing all the evils in the world to religion or overstating its positive contributions we must recognize that other powerful forces are in play.

Except I didn't attribute the Holocaust to Christianity. I pointed out that the faith of its perpetrators didn't imbue them with the morality to refuse executing it.

In other words, Christianity is irrelevant to moral progress ... real-world progress which has clearly been made when compared to the morality espoused in the Abrahamic holy books.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I’m backing away from simplistic arguments about whether faith or lack thereof were motivating forces or justifications for large scale social movements. Human history is too complex to shoehorn into that dichotomy. Faith can be a factor, but it most certainly not the only one nor is it always the most important.

It's a good thing that is not what I actually wrote, then!

And what faith did the persecutors hold?

The vast majority of Germans in that era, including the ones who operated the death-camp machinery, were Christian.

Little good it did them in moral guidance.

I have emphasized the point, so that you won't miss it this time.

[JesusHChrist]

A while back, I read a paper written by a professor at Gonzaga University in Spokane, a Catholic school.

From what I remember, his thesis was, the multi-century persecution of the Jews by Christians throughout Europe was very much a factor in the Holocaust. Martin Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies read like a playbook for the Nazis as one example. It was endemic in the culture and while multiple complex factors were at play, Jewish marginalization by the Christian majority was certainly a contributing and important factor.

Now, I can't find the paper on line any longer.  I thought it was odd such a paper would come from a Catholic school as it painted a bleak picture of European Christian culture and its complicity in the Holocaust.

[Jenny A]

A while back, I read a paper written by a professor at Gonzaga University in Spokane, a Catholic school.

From what I remember, his thesis was, the multi-century persecution of the Jews by Christians throughout Europe was very much a factor in the Holocaust. Martin Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies read like a playbook for the Nazis as one example. It was endemic in the culture and while multiple complex factors were at play, Jewish marginalization by the Christian majority was certainly a contributing and important factor.

Now, I can't find the paper on line any longer.  I thought it was odd such a paper would come from a Catholic school as it painted a bleak picture of European Christian culture and its complicity in the Holocaust.

Luther was convinced that once the NT was translated into good German, the German Jews would accept Jesus.  On Jews and Their Lies, was his cry of disappointment.  What it meant was that Protestants would treat the Jews no better than Catholics had been and would in future.

Certainly, that prejudice was why the holocaust was possible.

[Minimalist]

Luther was a jerk.

[JesusHChrist]

Here'a a brief Q&A with a Jewish prof that expands a bit on the cultural background for the holocaust:

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micros...203880.pdf

Now what did the devil want? The devil wanted to rule the world, and so the Jews,
possessed by the devil, wanted to rule the world. That, I think, is the origin of the idea
that the Nazis adopted, of a Jewish conspiracy to control the world. This developed
over time, of course, with its ups and downs. There were also some Christian trends,
or streams of thought, that were opposed to this, that were more pro-Jewish than that,
but they were a small minority. Overall, the Jew was the prototypical “other” in
Christian self-understanding.

Even if the Nazi leaders weren't religious, the cultural environment provided fertile soil for turning ideals into action.

[Neo-Scholastic]

You clearly missed my point, which is that Christianity is no guarantee of morality.

Having an intellectual belief is not the same as living according to that belief. As a general rule, pious followers of Christ model the highest virtues of which humanity is capable.

Except I didn't attribute the Holocaust to Christianity. I pointed out that the faith of its perpetrators didn't imbue them with the morality to refuse executing it.

Your comment only makes sense if you discount the efforts and influence for Christians like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who consciously and courageously applied the teachings of faith to his life.

In other words, Christianity is irrelevant to moral progress ...

By what standard to you assess moral progress other than the cultural norms of contemporary Western society?

[abaris]

As a general rule, pious followers of Christ model the highest virtues of which humanity is capable.

Phew, that's a tall order. Care to define pious follower by giving a few examples?

[Cyberman]

Pious believers live piously? Is that the road we're driving down now?

[KevinM1]

Pious believers live piously? Is that the road we're driving down now?

If Creflo is wrong, I don't wanna be right!