Religion's affect outside of religion

[MTL]

I know religious folks who are pretty adept at compartmentalization.

oh yeah definitely.

I know an Engineer...and ENGINEER...an educated, clever, pragmatic man

...except he is also a born-again Baptist.

He thinks that big earthquake that hit Haiti in 2010 was a judgment,
because Haiti "sold its soul to the devil"
in exchange for its freedom.

Also, he plumes himself on being enlightened because he was raised with Catholicism
but escaped the lies of the Catholic Church in favour of the "truth" of the Baptist Church.

I also know another man like that....the two of them work together, as it happens...
but the second man was raised in a Baptist home,
and plumes himself on escaping the lies of the Baptist Church,
in favour of the "truth" of the LDS.

Talk about the fucking frying pan and the fire.

Next stop, Jonestown.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I know religious folks who are pretty adept at compartmentalization.

oh yeah definitely.

I know an Engineer...and ENGINEER...an educated, clever, pragmatic man

...except he is also a born-again Baptist.

He thinks that big earthquake that hit Haiti in 2010 was a judgment,
because Haiti "sold its soul to the devil"
in exchange for its freedom.

Also, he plumes himself on being enlightened because he was raised with Catholicism
but escaped the lies of the Catholic Church in favour of the "truth" of the Baptist Church.

*sigh* I know it well. My dad has a Master's in process engineering, two Bachelor's in engineering (chemical & nuclear), and most of an EngD, and still thinks the world is 6000 years old. Southern Baptist. 

The man knows Atomic Theory. He can literally do the math on a board that shows the reason radioisotopes decay at a given rate and why they prove what they prove, but he refuses to let himself think about it. Both my Beloved and I have tried to get him to, to little avail. Compartmentalization with walls between, and fuses on any circuits which might connect A to B. 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I remember reading somewhere that among technical/scientific workers, engineers have the highest rates of religiosity.

I wonder why that is?

[robvalue]

I think that often the more reasonable and liberal theists make themselves appear less reasonable than they are.

For example, they will demand that their morality comes from God/the bible. But in reality, their morality is often almost the same as ours and they just point to bits in the bible that correlate with our shared morality. And they make a wealth of excuses for why they ignore the same parts of the bible we think are horrific. So they hold up the bible as a mirror, whether they realize it or not.

When pressed, they can also explain the morality in the exact same way an atheist does. It's when the morality stops being explaining in the secular way that you've got the religion causing/justifying irrational morality. This may be no issues at all, or maybe just a handful which do impact/restrict their lives unnecessarily.

[MTL]

oh yeah definitely.

I know an Engineer...and ENGINEER...an educated, clever, pragmatic man

...except he is also a born-again Baptist.

He thinks that big earthquake that hit Haiti in 2010 was a judgment,
because Haiti "sold its soul to the devil"
in exchange for its freedom.

Also, he plumes himself on being enlightened because he was raised with Catholicism
but escaped the lies of the Catholic Church in favour of the "truth" of the Baptist Church.

*sigh* I know it well. My dad has a Master's in process engineering, two Bachelor's in engineering (chemical & nuclear), and most of an EngD, and still thinks the world is 6000 years old. Southern Baptist. 

The man knows Atomic Theory. He can literally do the math on a board that shows the reason radioisotopes decay at a given rate and why they prove what they prove, but he refuses to let himself think about it. Both my Beloved and I have tried to get him to, to little avail. Compartmentalization with walls between, and fuses on any circuits which might connect A to B. 

Well if that's not compartmentalization, I don't know what is.

There are lots of Creationists who think they know the Theory of Evolution, but don't really understand it,
or refuse to learn it.

Of those that DID bother to learn it, many changed their thinking.

If your Dad, as you say, already knows Atomic Theory and still thinks the world is 6000 years old,
what else is there to say?

Proof means nothing.

The man I was talking about, the Engineer, he won't even acknowledge the relevance of the fact
that Haiti's buildings are poorly ENGINEERED...it's all masonry; no reinforcing structure.
It was like a bunch of dominoes waiting to be knocked down.

Couple that with a SHALLOW 7.0 INLAND earthquake and the inevitable happens.

Nevermind that Tokyo's skyscrapers survived a 9.0 with virtually no damage,
because the city is magnificently engineered.

And nevermind that the ceremony in which the Haitians were believed to have sold their soul to the devil
occurred in 1791....but that a similar earthquake hit Haiti in 1751,
likewise leveling the entire city,
while Haiti was still under French Colonial rule,
with the death toll only being lower because obviously the population was much lower.

and nevermind that severe earthquakes of that nature have hit the same area, roughly every 100 years:
again in 1842, and 1946.

Maddening.

[Drich]

Many people know that religious people hardly question their religious beliefs, and their rationality is skewed when it comes to their faith.


I think fewer understand just how much it effects the rationality and logical thinking outside of the religion though, here's why a majority of believers cannot leave their faith out of their daily lives. Many people think that some people can leave their faith out of how they go about their daily life. Here is why i disagree:

We all know many people are taught religion as truth from a very young age so they develop a bias toward it. That's only one piece of the puzzle though. When you are taught religion as the truth from an early age, you also develop a distrust of science as well. Science says your wrong, you are probably more likely to believe you are right(unless you research it, which most people aren't interested in).

This distrust of science extends far beyond your religion. I mean, if you don't believe me, go watch an online conspiracy video, I can garuntee you the base of the argument starts with not trusting what scientists tell us is true. I was recently watching "Flat earth proof" videos(which were hilarious btw) and as I was thinking about it, it dawned on me that even though this has nothing to do with religion, it all came back to religion. 


This is why religion will almost certainly effect every believer even when they try to leave it out of their lives - [What I mean by this is the people who very casually say they "believe in god" with a very broad concept, who dont go to church or read scripture, who don't try to justify information with their religion]. These people will always come back to "well they are wrong about ___" and end up, even if mildly, not really accepting what scientists say outside of religon(basically anything) as fact, or having a harder time accepting things as fact.

So... You believe religious people distrust 'science' because of faith in God? Here a thought, maybe people distrust 'science' because it is so often wrong! Maybe it hard to take- something as absolute truth when every couple of years that 'truth' changes.

No to mention those who believe in God who have no issue revsolving whatever the current 'science' says with belief in God. After all the only reason the two have to be at odds with each other is if one holds the belief God and everything he does has to remain unexplainable. Rather looking at the triviality of 'science' as man's feeble attempt to Phathom how God works. (Which explains why it is ever changing)

[Pyrrho]

I know religious folks who are pretty adept at compartmentalization.

The thing is, the compartments are never perfectly sealed, and it can be hard to predict when and where the nonsense will leak out and contaminate something else.  This is why religion is never completely benign.

[Heat]

Many people know that religious people hardly question their religious beliefs, and their rationality is skewed when it comes to their faith.


I think fewer understand just how much it effects the rationality and logical thinking outside of the religion though, here's why a majority of believers cannot leave their faith out of their daily lives. Many people think that some people can leave their faith out of how they go about their daily life. Here is why i disagree:

We all know many people are taught religion as truth from a very young age so they develop a bias toward it. That's only one piece of the puzzle though. When you are taught religion as the truth from an early age, you also develop a distrust of science as well. Science says your wrong, you are probably more likely to believe you are right(unless you research it, which most people aren't interested in).

This distrust of science extends far beyond your religion. I mean, if you don't believe me, go watch an online conspiracy video, I can garuntee you the base of the argument starts with not trusting what scientists tell us is true. I was recently watching "Flat earth proof" videos(which were hilarious btw) and as I was thinking about it, it dawned on me that even though this has nothing to do with religion, it all came back to religion. 


This is why religion will almost certainly effect every believer even when they try to leave it out of their lives - [What I mean by this is the people who very casually say they "believe in god" with a very broad concept, who dont go to church or read scripture, who don't try to justify information with their religion]. These people will always come back to "well they are wrong about ___" and end up, even if mildly, not really accepting what scientists say outside of religon(basically anything) as fact, or having a harder time accepting things as fact.

So... You believe religious people distrust 'science' because of faith in God? Here a thought, maybe people distrust 'science' because it is so often wrong! Maybe it hard to take- something as absolute truth when every couple of years that 'truth' changes.

No to mention those who believe in God who have no issue revsolving whatever the current 'science' says with belief in God. After all the only reason the two have to be at odds with each other is if one holds the belief God and everything he does has to remain unexplainable. Rather looking at the triviality of 'science' as man's feeble attempt to Phathom how God works. (Which explains why it is ever changing)

Thank you for essentially proving my point. You are the perfect example.

Tell me, if you have no evidence that god exists and science(the people who's jobs it is to study the natural world) say you are wrong, why do you believe in god?

If you have no reason to believe in god, why do you? The people who have come to terms with there being no proof for god, don't do it because they don't want a god to exist. Truth is you have an everlasting need to have an answer, and when science can't provide one you turn to "magic" which can pretty much explain anything you want it to. It's an irrational, non evidence based belief, and you should be the poster child for religious woo-woo because you have just openly told me "Science is wrong because it's wrong, god exists because we have no other way of explaining the universe. science is wrong because god is true and you cant understand god because god" just to sum it up.

[Drich]

Thank you for essentially proving my point. You are the perfect example.

Tell me, if you have no evidence that god exists and science(the people who's jobs it is to study the natural world) say you are wrong, why do you believe in god?

What makes you think I have no 'proof' God exists? it is because you don't? Is it because you have been taught to dismiss the proof God initially offers? The best you can assert is I do not have proof to satisify YOU that God does not exist. But, that in of itself is a trivial standard, because you and what you think you believe, isn't an absolute measure of anything. For example. You have no proof of my mother, yet She exists. (my existence is not 'proof of anything anymore) You also have no 'proof' of her background yet she has one. Further more neither she or I are willing to provide you the proof you need to verify her existence or her background. Therefore the very best you can say is YOU have no proof in which to believe. Or you simply ASSume (without proof) that she exists.

Bottom line.. Just because you can't prove something does not mean 'proof' is not available. You are not the standard in which the universe must revolve.

If you have no reason to believe in god, why do you? The people who have come to terms with there being no proof for god, don't do it because they don't want a god to exist. Truth is you have an everlasting need to have an answer, and when science can't provide one you turn to "magic" which can pretty much explain anything you want it to. It's an irrational, non evidence based belief, and you should be the poster child for religious woo-woo because you have just openly told me "Science is wrong because it's wrong, god exists because we have no other way of explaining the universe. science is wrong because god is true and you cant understand god because god" just to sum it up.

So is it your expectation that I follow this red herring, or should I wait for you to come back to the subject matter being discussed?

[MTL]

What makes you think I have no 'proof' God exists? it is because you don't? Is it because you have been taught to dismiss the proof God initially offers? The best you can assert is I do not have proof to satisify YOU that God does not exist. But, that in of itself is a trivial standard, because you and what you think you believe, isn't an absolute measure of anything. For example. You have no proof of my mother, yet She exists. (my existence is not 'proof of anything anymore) You also have no 'proof' of her background yet she has one. Further more neither she or I are willing to provide you the proof you need to verify her existence or her background. Therefore the very best you can say is YOU have no proof in which to believe. Or you simply ASSume (without proof) that she exists.

Bottom line.. Just because you can't prove something does not mean 'proof' is not available. You are not the standard in which the universe must revolve.

Drich,

"Proof" is something that you can present to me that I CANNOT argue with.

Let's say you had a personal experience of God,
...and you consider that experience as "proof" of God, okay?

But you are not able to replicate that experience for the benefit of Atheists.

When you come to us with such a thing,
we cannot, with any degree of integrity,
consider that as being classifiable as "PROOF".

It is merely classifiable as a CLAIM that you were personally provided with PROOF.

I might even personally be prepared to believe that you sincerely had a personal experience,
but that STILL does not automatically translate into accepting your claim of an experience,
into my own proof of God's existence.

Even if I want to believe your claim,
if I am to be conscientious and honest with myself,
I am compelled to remain skeptical,
until I am personally provided with INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF, myself.

Using your mother as an example is redundant,
because, if called upon,
you COULD actually provide proof to others
of your mother's existence,
whereas you cannot, with regard to God's existence.

And I'm sorry, Drich...but I have to honestly say that I find it a bit tedious
that I had to explain that very obvious difference to you.

And if you are not willing to provide proof of her existence,
that's also irrelevant,

because:

A.  Your claims of your mother's existence is far more plausible than your claims of God's existence;

B.  Your claims of your mother's existence don't affect my life,
whereas the claims, by Theists, throughout history, of God's existence,
have resulted in wars and oppression.

So acknowledging your claims of your mother's existence, even without proof being provided,
is both easier, and far more harmless,

than acknowledging your claims of God's existence.

...and, ultimately, you don't really care whether or not I believe your mother exists, Drich,

whereas, on the other hand, it seems to be really important to you whether or not I believe God exists
...otherwise you wouldn't even be here arguing about it.



Secondly,

You go on to claim that God HAS already given man proof of Himself.

Where is that?

I have seen no such thing.



Thirdly,

How do you know that your experience of God is legitimate?

how do you know that you are not delusional,
seeing things no one else sees,

or, let's assume you are perfectly sane,
and that your experience was genuine
....you actually, legitimately experienced interaction with a supernatural being.

How do you know that the entity you observed
was actually who He claimed to be?

I can think of many, many reasons why a demon
might want to masquerade as God and fool humans into worshiping him,
...assuming there IS in fact a spirit realm, and such things as demons exist...

and by what yardstick to you gauge the authenticity of the manifestations and claims of spirits?

(And remember, as a Theist,
there is far more reason for YOU to be suspicious that you are being conned by a demon,
than there is reason for ME to think so,
since I'm not inclined to believe in demons, at all).

Finally Drich, to dismiss science because of conflicting theories or findings is so absurd that it angers me.

The cache of human knowledge reaped from Science is one where we have STEADILY MADE GAINS,
despite many backslides along the way.

The claims of Religion have STEADILY LOST GROUND over thousands of years.

(the earth is flat, the earth revolves around the sun, blood circulating through the body, etc etc)

Religion only continues to thrive and grow in numbers
because the majority of humanity chooses solace over facing hard truths,
is intellectually lazy, or ignorant,
or simply wants to win wars and wield power over those who do not agree with them.