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Religion's affect outside of religion
#31
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 11:23 am)MTL Wrote: Drich,

you said:
**********************************************************************************
"Proof according to good old google is:
1.evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement. "

"What you are describing is undeniable proof. "
**********************************************************************************
Ok Drich, I am sorry if this was unclear.

I am basically referring to Evidence, versus Proof.

To say "Undeniable Proof" is repeating yourself, a redundancy.
Like saying "Car Automobile"
ROFLOL I gave you the definition, and you even quoted back to me!!! And you STILL Don't seem to get it!

"Undeniable proof" is not a redundant term in the real world. (It seems to be in yours where you assign random definations to standard English words.)

Again according to the Dictionary "proof" in this context means:
1.evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

as such 'to help to establish' means all proof is not undeniable. So to say 'Undeniable proof' means with the evidence or argument provided one can not deny the truth being established.

Quote:If what is being presented is undeniable.....then it is "Proof".
Sorry sport that is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

While it is true that if your evidence is indeed undeniable then it is considered proof, however not all 'evidence need be undeniable according to the dictionary definition provided to be considered proof.

A does = B but B does not =A

Quote:If it is not undeniable....it is merely "Evidence". 
Maybe in closed minds across the interwebs, but not in the real world. again your arguing a logical fallacy against an established dictionary definition. in the real world reference material always wins out over what unsupported banter claims is true.

Quote:If you want me to believe in God, I will need Proof.  Not merely what you submit as Evidence.
ROFLOL what makes you think I want to make you believe in God? I only want to provide the road map to find all the undeniable proof one needs IF and only IF they truly want to know the truth of God. I only use my experiences to tell you that I followed the Map God left and found what He has promised. Whether you find what was promised or not is little concern of mine outside of providing you with direction if and when you seek it.

Quote:If it makes you feel better, fine, call it undeniable proof,
or as I did, myself:  Incontrovertible Proof.

yes, that is what I'm asking for,
and I only ask for it because Theists ask Atheists to believe.
Then like everyone else who has ever got that proof, A/S/K God for it. What you all seem to be oblivious to is God is not a puppet or experiment we can just conjor up on demand. If we could then He would not be God. If God is who He says He is then wouldn't it make sense that you would have to meet him on His terms rather than Him meeting you on yours? If you wanted to meet Obama, would you assume that he would be at your beckon call? That He would jump at the chance o fire up Air force one land it on your street and do stupid president tricks to 'proove' He was indeed the POTUS?

Then why oh why would a semi intelligent man assume that the creator of Everything could be summoned like a grinder monkey collecting quarters, if infact he understands that even powerful men can't be bothered with such trivial things?

Quote:which brings me to my next point...


you said:
**********************************************************************************
"For me to believe in God, God need NOT provide you with undeniable proof. "
**********************************************************************************
Drich,

I was indicating that if Theists, in general, want Atheists to believe in God,
then the onus is upon Theists to provide Atheists with proof of God.
You assume too much.

Quote:If you want to believe in God, yourself,
and you are not asking others to believe, as well,

...then no, of course I don't require that you provide me with proof
....or even evidence, for that matter.

Believe what you like.  I don't care.
Not according to the OP of this thread. Isn't the OP of this thread to point out how foolish believers are because we do not 'believe' as you do? So which is it? do you not care or do you?

I would think I made this distinction fairly clear when I acknowledged that
YOU may very well have had a personal experience of God,
and that I am prepared to allow for its legitimacy.


I am simply saying that your claims of a personal experience
are not sufficient proof to bring about my own belief in god.

And I think you knew that. 
[/quote]
To which I prefaced my experiences with "These are the things God did for me, and offers to each one of you." My experiences belong to me, an are my 'proof.' That however is not where it ends. God is willing to alieviate all the doubting thomas' of this world if they would simply show the faith Thomas did and 'show up.' Remember Jesus let Thomas put his hands in his wounds as undeniable proof. He did not condemn Thomas for needing this proof nor anyone else who would need this. He simply added a blessing on those who do not need to be shown these types of things. That's what God needed to do for me, and He followed suit with exactly what I needed to establish and maintain my belief.

To which God/Jesus promised He would do for ANYONE who would A/S/K. So again My 'proof' was for me, and He has promised in a similar manner work with any of you who can humble himself enough to A/S/K

Quote:You're the Theist who came to post in an Atheist forum, don't forget.
And don't forget you are a noob atheist who has come to the Christianity portion of the site to discuss this specific religion.

Quote:You accuse me of being self-centred and thinking the world revolves around me,
but you are the one who automatically assumes that I am asking you to justify your own beliefs to me,
and I am doing nothing of the sort.
I did not accuse you.. to accuse is to simply claim you did 'X'. I demonstrated that you had indeed adopted a philosophy that places your own personal views and definations over that of the rest of society.

Quote:I am saying that if a Theist wants an Atheist to believe,
then the Theist must provide the Atheist  with proof.
Amd I am saying if you want Proof Ask, Seek and Knock for it as outlined in Luke 11 just like everyone else has had to in the last 2000 years.

Quote:**********************************************************************************
" your presumption is that my experiences are only unique to me.  "

**********************************************************************************

Drich,

I didn't presume any such thing.  At all.

I don't care if 99.999% of the planet believes exactly what you believe,
and had the same experience you had.

Until I have proof, I don't accept your beliefs
as reason to believe, for myself.
You do not understand the basic point I was making. Your presumption means you assume that my 'proof' of God is in my experiences and that is all anyone has to work with, when in fact my example is not unique. It is offered to everyone.

Quote:I will return.
I am counting the minutes
Reply
#32
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 1:58 pm)Drich Wrote: And don't forget you are a noob atheist who has come to the Christianity portion of the site to discuss this specific religion.
What has that got to do with any of your BS 'arguments'? Who cares if he's new here, you don't know his background before coming here do you? You demonstrate repeated signs that you think the older or more experienced you are actually counts for something. Well it doesn't drippy, 50 years studying a single book and swatting the rest away leads to fuck all.
50 years as a Theologian is 50 years wasted, it climaxes in an individual stating that his personal interpretation is better than anyone elses, the younger ones must learn from me. Bullshit upon bullshit upon bullshit. You are a prime example of the ultimate man made virus. Nothing more, nothing less.
Reply
#33
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
Quote:I will return.
I am counting the minutes
[/quote]

Forget it.  I don't mind conceding on the dictionary thing,

but I was going to share my personal experience of god with you
because I was interested in your feedback on it,
but it's rapidly becoming clear to me that would be a mistake.
Reply
#34
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 2:48 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:
(September 22, 2015 at 1:58 pm)Drich Wrote: And don't forget you are a noob atheist who has come to the Christianity portion of the site to discuss this specific religion.
What has that got to do with any of your BS 'arguments'? Who cares if he's new here, you don't know his background before coming here do you? You demonstrate repeated signs that you think the older or more experienced you are actually counts for something. Well it doesn't drippy, 50 years studying a single book and swatting the rest away leads to fuck all.
50 years as a Theologian is 50 years wasted, it climaxes in an individual stating that his personal interpretation is better than anyone elses, the younger ones must learn from me. Bullshit upon bullshit upon bullshit. You are a prime example of the ultimate man made virus. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks Tubby.  You're right, a lot of assumptions made about my background.

For the record:

I am a 39 year old female.

I was raised in a devout Christian home and studied the entire New Testament COMPETITIVELY
in our church youth group, for years.  We competed against other churches, thousands of other youth.
Our church frequently won, years in a row.
Reply
#35
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 4:01 pm)MTL Wrote: I am a 39 year old female.

I was raised in a devout Christian home and studied the entire New Testament COMPETITIVELY
in our church youth group, for years.  We competed against other churches, thousands of other youth.
Our church frequently won, years in a row.

I did think afterwards I should edit my reply to 'he/she/it' but then I opened another beer and could'nt be bothered.
Reply
#36
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 4:04 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:
(September 22, 2015 at 4:01 pm)MTL Wrote: I am a 39 year old female.

I was raised in a devout Christian home and studied the entire New Testament COMPETITIVELY
in our church youth group, for years.  We competed against other churches, thousands of other youth.
Our church frequently won, years in a row.

I did think afterwards I should edit my reply to 'he/she/it' but then I opened another beer and could'nt be bothered.

it's fine, doesn't matter.  thanks again
Reply
#37
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 20, 2015 at 12:55 am)MTL Wrote:
(September 20, 2015 at 12:46 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: I know religious folks who are pretty adept at compartmentalization.

oh yeah definitely.

I know an Engineer...and ENGINEER...an educated, clever, pragmatic man

...except he is also a born-again Baptist.

He thinks that big earthquake that hit Haiti in 2010 was a judgment,
because Haiti "sold its soul to the devil"
in exchange for its freedom.

Also, he plumes himself on being enlightened because he was raised with Catholicism
but escaped the lies of the Catholic Church in favour of the "truth" of the Baptist Church.

I also know another man like that....the two of them work together, as it happens...
but the second man was raised in a Baptist home,
and plumes himself on escaping the lies of the Baptist Church,
in favour of the "truth" of the LDS.

Talk about the fucking frying pan and the fire.

Next stop, Jonestown.
It is naive to assume someone who is deeply religious must also be really dumb - There certainly is a tendency (perhaps ignorance is a far better word to describe it) but let's not forget there are incredibly educated and smart terrorists planting bombs and committing suicide bombing, and clever, well educated intellectuals who support white supremacism and the whole white anglo saxon protestant thing
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

Reply
#38
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 4:28 pm)Dystopia Wrote: It is naive to assume someone who is deeply religious must also be really dumb - There certainly is a tendency (perhaps ignorance is a far better word to describe it) but let's not forget there are incredibly educated and smart terrorists planting bombs and committing suicide bombing, and clever, well educated intellectuals who support white supremacism and the whole white anglo saxon protestant thing

I agree with this. One of my first shocks into the facts of Islamic terrorism was to learn that a significant percent of the suicide bombers were highly educated: engineers and lawyers and architects, etc.  This datum blew me away (so to speak).

It's one of the reasons I loathe fundamentalist-type religious thinking. The corrupting power of that sort of religion on the mind is not a matter of mere ignorance, but of a twisting of normal thought processes until the absolutely insane becomes plausible to that individual.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

Reply
#39
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 12:36 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:
(September 22, 2015 at 11:23 am)Godschild Wrote:  I see you're still bragging about yourself, and as far as that list I did not mention any on it, I said plainly these were people I knew.

GC

How is "I am a former evolutionary biologist and my fiancee, who is a devout Christian, still is one" bragging about myself?

You're going to sit here and try to tell me that you know  working, publishing biologists who are Creationists?

Listen thick headed dude, I said nothing about what type of scientist they were in either post, your reading things into posts to satisfy your own ego. Your bragging that you know more about the Bible than any other Christian and I'd bet there are some here who know much more. See.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
#40
RE: Religion's affect outside of religion
(September 22, 2015 at 5:48 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(September 22, 2015 at 12:36 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: How is "I am a former evolutionary biologist and my fiancee, who is a devout Christian, still is one" bragging about myself?

You're going to sit here and try to tell me that you know  working, publishing biologists who are Creationists?

Listen thick headed dude, I said nothing about what type of scientist they were in either post, your reading things into posts to satisfy your own ego. Your bragging that you know more about the Bible than any other Christian and I'd bet there are some here who know much more. See.

GC

No, you listen, "thick headed dude", only a biologist would be qualified to speak on the veracity of evolutionary biology. So I presumed they were biologists because I didn't want to presume that you'd be so dishonest as to cite (for instance) an engineer as an expert on evolution any more than I'd cite a biologist as an expert qualified to make statements about engineering.

Forgive me for offering you the benefit of the doubt. My mistake!

And since you're getting so harpy on what was and wasn't read into a post, for the sake of ego, let's be really fucking clear right now.

I didn't say "than any other Christian". I said "one of the only Christians I know who knows the Bible as well as I do". (Emphasis mine.)
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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