(October 4, 2015 at 9:17 pm)Beccs Wrote: It's interested that the word "forged" is used in the thread title...
It's ironic, yes. The word forged is apt. Syriac Infancy Gospel anyone?
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How it was forged.
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 It's ironic, yes. The word forged is apt. Syriac Infancy Gospel anyone? 
MNMP
I follow no Jafr, Hadith books or any of that. The Quran is my only source. The moon symbol is to my info, was used by Ancient Arabs for ages. Yet what gave it the widespread -as you said- : was the Ottomans. I don't know their motives. Allah above the coat of arms means nothing. For their symbol to be there is enough disastrous. This is a holy land that tribal & nationalistic symbols should stay out of it. The Shahada on their flag is there to give the flag & the country an Islamic flavor..cover the tribal taste with a religious taste. People using "science in the Quran" are not precisly Wahhabies; yet the Sunni faith to me has a rotten base in the first place, the saudies only made it worse. Quote:It didn't even used to be the case that Kathir couldn't enter Mecca, apparently. The Sikh Guru, Nanak, went to Mecca during his travels. People use this fact against Sikhs but there is nothing to suggest he completed any pilgrimage. He merely passed through Mecca. I know Quran 9:28 says idolaters are not approach the Sacred Mosque, but I see a number of problems with the Iyah. I think it's only a call to make the mosque "for Muslims & Muslims only". After all, it's a holy ground. This verse applies to the acts of the Sauds by the way; my problem for example with their coat of arms hanged is nothing but carrying out this verse : keep idols out of Mecca. About the Sikh Guru, the verse spoke about the mosque itself (not the city). I guess it's legit if somebody of different faith wanted also to pass by. Nothing in the verse says otherwise. Quote:First, like many Iyah in the Quran, it doesn't mention Mecca by name. People simply assume that it's referring to Mecca. I remember there is a man named Dan Gibson who visited many early Mosque sites and found the Qublia was not always facing Mecca. Yes. It mentions the mosque only. "Al Masged Al Haram" is well known to be the "holy mosque". About the "Qebla" or "direction of prayer", the Quran clearly says it should be towards the holy mosque. Yet Again, in ancient times, people didn't have the accurate means that we have today to calibrate the directions. (Sura 2 Verse 149 ) So from wherever you go out turn your face toward al- Masjid al-Haram, and indeed, it is the truth from your Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. That book looks interesting to read. Quote:Second, the verse is more interesting for what it doesn't say rather what it does. Atheist, by definition, can't be Pagans so should they be allowed near the Sacred Mosque? Saudi loves money so they could turn Mecca into a world famous tourist attraction, like the Vatican is, if they haven't already. It would certainly help with the Dawah. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saudis were artificially keeping the Zamzam spring flowing. A pagan doesn't need to be a stone worshiper; actually the Quran spoke about different types of pagans, the idol you worship can be "your own desire". This verse for example : (Sura 25 Verse 43 ) Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him? I think athiests fall under that category. About Zam-Zam, it's not even mentioned in the Quran, for me personally, the only worth for the spring is its archaeological value. Many Muslims took it as "holy waters". The Sauds would of course find it an awesome chance to make money out of it; even if it's fake zam-zam. Quote:I also knew about the Doomsday Clock. Fortunately there was that Fawta (not exactly a Fawta, but whatever) against climate change, so there is some hope. The United States is full of hypocrites who would like to deny that the United States likes to bully everyone. That's the role of the Super Power after all. It's hard to become a SP without bullying small countries. The U.S.A started that even before WW2, even Hitler was bullied; Japan too, but that's the price you pay to become supreme on this earth; yet : too much bullying makes up too many enemies, i.e the Jihadi headache the U.S is living today. Let alone the many force nobody knows anything about yet -like Putin & China- who stretch their arms to hurt the States every now & then. Take the recent Russian intervention in Syria for example. I agree to your point, double standards in blaming others while forgetting your own sins. Quote:While we're on the subject of NASA, I must correct you on something. We don't need the sun or moon for plants to grow. Plants, including edible ones, have been grown on the International Space Station without the use of sunlight and then eaten. They use artificial lights that replicate the effect of sunlight. I usually speak with a broad look that includes the ancient times too; and places with no tech. To me, a perfect book would be a book that works in all environments after all. Take technology or resources off; then boom: again you need God desperately to help you growing your crops.. Take huge crops; if you wanted to grow them artificially, you'll need whole power plants to keep the lights on..Not everybody can afford that; even today. All humans are materialistic. Actually, heaven or paradise is a place where people get infinite materialistic things as part of the blessings they are in. Being materialistic is being human. Though, the key is to let go of some materialistic things because they hurt others, remove doing things with excess. Excess that cause earth to die, and a whole continent to go in poverty. Quote:I don't remember you telling me personally that you're not a Sunni, but now I know. Regardless, I think we have talked about slavery enough. I'm not suggesting you like to wear peculiar hats but where I live is nothing like the United States, where big business does dominate to an unhealthy degree. If people care about Capitalism then they would put measures in place to restrain big business from becoming too powerful. Funny how Americans lecture the rest of the world about Democracy when there is none where they live. I'm not. Actually I fall in the hot zone between Sunni & Shia fire; since my beliefs attack both and accuse them of forging Islam. Ironically, all my beliefs are purely Quranic. In Saudi Arabia, I could go to jail & for a really long time or worse : get my head cut. Iran is the same for me too. There must be anti-monopoly rules, but the U.S clearly don't have them; corruption is a bad thing, worse is when politicians get bought by big businessmen. Take McDonald that never pays taxes; allowing it to expand insanely on behalf of other businesses. Again : double standards.. Not a democracy I would dream about. Quote:I was not suggesting Allah has human attributes, even though Allah is shown to get angry and is vengeful against the Jews. I'm surprised Iran and Africans have been blamed for the recent troubles in Mecca and it's not been the fault of Zionists for once. However, what I am saying is that it was non-nonsensical for Iblis to refuse to bow before Adam. Allah created Iblis knowing this would happen. I could create a better universe than Allah if I was given the same powers Allah is said to have. The political situation is the big move, it's Iran when the Sauds have a problem with Iran, it's "Zionism or ze big devil" when it's the sauds fault; again Saudi Arabia & Israel are big buddies under the table. I advice you to read the history of the Sauds. God gets angry & vengeful against all sinners; not just Jews. Yet; he also forgives. His anger & forgiveness are nothing like human anger and forgiveness, too. About the topic of Satan not bowing. That's free will. I will discuss this topic exactly in a different topic. I actually need to arrange my ideas and theory about it..  (October 5, 2015 at 3:30 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: MNMP So if you started at page 1 and go to the end how many verses in the Koran would actually specifically apply to you as a believer? Would you get maybe three or four pages worth from the whole book?
AtlasS33, your theory would be credible if Qibla was all different directions. However, the website states that before 107AH 100% of Mosques had Qibla to Petra in Jordan, not Mecca. I really need to buy the book Quranic Geography because it sounds so interesting this.
See here: http://www.searchformecca.com/qibla.html Of the Mosques visited, those that were built within 100 years of Hijra were facing the direction of Petra, not Mecca. I do find it curious that the creator of the universes cares in which direction in which a person prays in. This causes all sorts of problems for Astronauts and it's looking like Mars is a real possibility within the next couple of decades. You fall between Sunni and Shia? I didn't think that was possible. I think the term you're looking for is "Quranist". You either side with Aisha or side with Ali. Ali VS Aisha was the reason for the split. So now I'm confused. Ibadis were created before Sunni and Shia sand have their own Hadith (e.g. Jami Sahih and Tartib al-Musnad) but you haven't mentioned them. Sunni and Shia are opposed to each other so it sounds as if you're picking the bits you like from different groups of people and dismissing anything you don't like. It's understandable though, and increasingly common, as believers (of all religions) try to reconcile their beliefs with the modern world. RE: How it was forged.
October 6, 2015 at 7:41 am
(This post was last modified: October 6, 2015 at 8:11 am by WinterHold.)
MNMP
Surfing through the site; I found this : http://www.searchformecca.com/timeline.html Move the cursor to the square holding "satanic verses"..what the hell? With a Quran open in front of me now, the verse mentioned is actually a direct attack on the heathens of Mecca; and matter in fact discusses a totally different topic : read the complete verses yourself : (Sura 53 Verse 19 ) Did you see al-Lat and al-'Uzza? (Sura 53 Verse 20 ) And Manat, the third - the other one? (Sura 53 Verse 21 ) Is the male for you and for Him the female? (Sura 53 Verse 22 ) That, then, is an unjust division. (Sura 53 Verse 23 ) They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance. The verse literally says that the Gods of Mecca are nothing more than "names, the heathens and their forefathers made up"; referring again to the type of pagans who worship their own desire..it's so romantic to have a fertility Goddess after all..Though it remains a desire. If such an info exists on the site; then the author cannot even read the Quran probably and truly makes me throw their crediibility down the stream, this begins to smell like that movie "the innocent of Islam". The previous verse was an open war against the idols of Mecca; yet the author found a way to twist it upside down. If such stuff is embedded in their content, then their content has no credibility to me at least. This was a direct hiding of the rest of the verses, and taking a verse out of context. About the mosques..how do I believe now that their research is true ?? Some pictures here and there proves nothing too.. But about the Qibla, yes it was changed in Mohammed peace be upon him's time, from Jerusalem to the holy mosque in Mecca. The Quran described that in details. About my religious stand, not what I like is what I take; I validate anything against the Quran; in other words it's my own constitution. Take Aisha & Ali as an example. I side with Aisha; but that doesn't make me a Sunni. I stand against Ali, but that doesn't make me an Ummayad Sunni. I stand against the Ummayads and their heathen master, but that doesn't make me a Shia or "Ali worshiper". Bring me a Hadith. If it doesn't contradict the Quran, then I put it on my radar as possibility. But never believe in it. A methodology that brought me a peace of mind. Quranists though are not my type; I remember reading about them in the past; I think many of them stand "lost" because they don't know how to pray; or do other things that the Quran spoke about in the first place. RE: How it was forged.
October 6, 2015 at 8:11 am
(This post was last modified: October 6, 2015 at 9:14 am by WinterHold.)
MysticKnight
Please, again I repeat my advice : don't take things out of context.. I literally said : " And if you disagree ".. This, is equivalent -literally- to : "thereafter if you disagree". Wait let's put "so" instead of and : "so if you disagree". This is no argument. About the rest of your comment, First of all, Taghut -the word mentioned in the verses you brought- don't mean what you said; in native arabic tongue it has two famous meanings : Satan & false Gods (my mother tongue is Arabic btw). All the other meanings for this word doesn't even include a ruler or authority; You turned it into "inordinate false authority" ?? I wonder where you brought the word "authority" from.. Here ya go; from an Arabic-Arabic dictionary : http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8...%88%D8%AA/ Second, you turned "نقيراً" = "Naqeera" = Date's seed into "at a date stone" ? Thid, Ayat = آية only refers to (Signs/revelations). While the word for guidance is "Hoda" = هدى .. Wyrd of Gawd I didn't understand; you mean like applies "on me", or in general in life matters ?  RE: How it was forged.
October 6, 2015 at 1:26 pm
(This post was last modified: October 6, 2015 at 1:29 pm by Mystic.)
Thereafter would be "thuma", fa means so/therefore, specially given the context that it talks about the authority of the family of Ibrahim, it doesn't make sense to interpret it as other then so/therefore even if it was possible to interpret it as others then that.
The Quran verse right after talks about people who wanted to get their dispute judged by the "Taghut". You honestly believe people were going to some idol to get it judged? The Quran also talks about the authorities of those who disbelieve being the Taghut and that they lead them from light to darkness. It again doesn't make sense to mean gods/idols but it rather means the false inordinate authority.
I can accept not entering inside the Haram but the boundaries of Mecca the city are a human construct. Also, because Mecca is owned by Saudi, it means the al-Saud family get to define who is a believer and who isn't because they restrict those who can visit Mecca.
The Satanic Verses are a well known story. The story is mentioned in various places, notably in al-Tabarī. It is not a story created by Kathirs against Muhammad as it is reported by believers themselves. It inspired the infamous book of the same name, first published in 1988, by the Indian author Salman Rushdie. A Fatwa was issued allowing people to kill Salman Rushdie because many people didn't like his book (even though the book is fiction and only loosely based on the account in the Hadith etc.). Fortunately, he is still alive today. People have debated its authenticity many times. Many believers at least acknowledge the story. Here is a summary of the story: The story is found in Buhkari though this version doesn't mention the Shaytan. The other two versions of the story (e.g. from al-Tabarī and Ibn Hisham) go like this. Either: 1. The Shaytan made Muhammad speak the names of the three Pagan goddesses (from al-Tabarī) or 2. Muhammad was reciting Quran and Muhammad, in this instance, could not tell the difference between Jibrill and the Shaytan. The Shaytan pretended to be Jibrill and Muhammad fell for it and after the real Jibrill informed of what had happened Muhammad became very depressed. People have claimed story is an example of a test from Allah to Muhammad. In both versions, the Pagans heard Muhammad recite the names of the Pagan goddesses and began to join the believers in prayer. The believers, meanwhile, did not understand what was going on and where confused. Later, the verses were (supposedly) changed to the Quran 53:19-23 we see today. Other people have claimed Muhammad was trying to make the Pagans happy by acknowledging their deities and later retracted the verses and use the story as proof the Quran has been changed. Yasir Qadhi is a nice man, I'll let him explain (as he can explain the story better than I can): The Incident of the Satanic Verses - Yasir Qadhi | November 2011 https://youtu.be/X8CDvhM3arg But let's put that website aside for one moment. The Quran (2:127) says the Kaaba was originally built by Abraham. If evidence was found that Mecca is as old the Quran says, don't you think the Saudis would yell about it? It would certainly be checkmate for the Bible if one could demonstrate people have been going on pilgrimage to Mecca for that long. Yet we can't even be sure Abraham existed. True, there are lots of people who we can't say for certain existed, but this is Abraham. Abraham is important. If Abraham didn't exist, then Muhammad can't claim him as an ancestor. This would cause all sorts of problems, obviously. The story of Abraham makes me sad because he was going to kill his own son because he thought god told him to. Disgusting. (October 6, 2015 at 8:11 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: What I mean by verses that apply to you specifically are verses like these: 2:6-7 2:108 2:178 2:191-192 2:216 2:221 3:28 3:73 3:118 3:149 4:89 4:140 4:144 5:51 5:55 These following verses do not apply to you specifically because you don't do anything in them: 2:10 2:17-18 2:61 2:85 2:96 2:104 2:114 2:175 2:257 3:32 3:85 4:102 4:160 These will get you started. The Koran is loaded with BS just like the Bible is. But as you can see from the verses that apply specifically to you if you followed them you wouldn't be posting on internet forums. So it looks like you will be roasting in hell after Judgment Day. No paradise of any kind for you. The Koran says so. RE: How it was forged.
October 7, 2015 at 8:41 am
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2015 at 8:55 am by WinterHold.)
WOG
The same advice I gave to MysticKnight : don't take things out of context. That would make you misunderstand the whole thing; take this example : The first verse & the verses following its context in 2:6-7 does indeed apply to many of the atheists here, especially this : Sura 2, the verses that follow : ( 13 ) And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not. ( 14 ) And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers." ( 15 ) [But] Allah mocks them and prolongs them in their transgression [while] they wander blindly. ( 16 ) Those are the ones who have purchased error [in exchange] for guidance, so their transaction has brought no profit, nor were they guided. Though, why do you neglect this verse for example ? Sura 7 ( 164 ) And when a community among them said, "Why do you advise [or warn] a people whom Allah is [about] to destroy or to punish with a severe punishment?" they [the advisors] said, "To be absolved before your Lord and perhaps they may fear Him." ( 165 ) And when they forgot that by which they had been reminded, We saved those who had forbidden evil and seized those who wronged, with a wretched punishment, because they were defiantly disobeying. Reading the above, tell me please, why shouldn't I be in a forum ?? To show you your error in reading this book, here it is in simple words : we already know some people won't believe. We already know they'll make fun & mock. Yet, we still call them to this faith; perhaps they may fear God & believe. What's the reward ? verse 165 : saving that might come in earth, or might come in the afterlife; or better : BOTH. This is how you read the Quran. Don't take a verse and forget the rest; taking things out of context. Another example is 2:108 .. ( 106 ) We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? ( 107 ) Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper? ( 108 ) Or do you intend to ask your Messenger as Moses was asked before? And whoever exchanges faith for disbelief has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way. Believers had doubts when some verses were taken out of the Quran. Thus came verse 108 : the verse in other words is : (you have doubts..would you make your doubt control you & do the same mistake that the people of Moses did ? to ask Mohammed the same things that Moses was asked ??) Search the Quran to find what Moses was asked : Sura 4 (153 ) The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority. Don't read with double standards. Stick to the context, and never use a verse before checking if the rest of its story is there. |
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