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The same advice I gave to MysticKnight : don't take things out of context. That would make you misunderstand the whole thing; take this example :
The first verse & the verses following its context in 2:6-7 does indeed apply to many of the atheists here, especially this :
Sura 2, the verses that follow :
( 13 ) And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.
( 14 ) And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers."
( 15 ) [But] Allah mocks them and prolongs them in their transgression [while] they wander blindly.
( 16 ) Those are the ones who have purchased error [in exchange] for guidance, so their transaction has brought no profit, nor were they guided.
Though, why do you neglect this verse for example ?
Sura 7
( 164 ) And when a community among them said, "Why do you advise [or warn] a people whom Allah is [about] to destroy or to punish with a severe punishment?" they [the advisors] said, "To be absolved before your Lord and perhaps they may fear Him."
( 165 ) And when they forgot that by which they had been reminded, We saved those who had forbidden evil and seized those who wronged, with a wretched punishment, because they were defiantly disobeying.
Reading the above, tell me please, why shouldn't I be in a forum ?? To show you your error in reading this book, here it is in simple words : we already know some people won't believe. We already know they'll make fun & mock. Yet, we still call them to this faith; perhaps they may fear God & believe.
What's the reward ? verse 165 : saving that might come in earth, or might come in the afterlife; or better : BOTH.
This is how you read the Quran. Don't take a verse and forget the rest; taking things out of context.
Another example is 2:108 ..
( 106 ) We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?
( 107 ) Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?
( 108 ) Or do you intend to ask your Messenger as Moses was asked before? And whoever exchanges faith for disbelief has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.
Believers had doubts when some verses were taken out of the Quran. Thus came verse 108 : the verse in other words is : (you have doubts..would you make your doubt control you & do the same mistake that the people of Moses did ? to ask Mohammed the same things that Moses was asked ??)
Search the Quran to find what Moses was asked :
Sura 4
(153 ) The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.
Quote:Don't read with double standards. Stick to the context, and never use a verse before checking if the rest of its story is there.
As I pointed out before, verses such you have cited don't have anything specifically to do with you. They are talking about what Moses supposedly was told and did. Are you Moses?
The examples I cited clearly tell you what you should do as an individual muslim. And if you keep arguing with me your deity is going to roast your butt in his hell.
October 8, 2015 at 9:20 am (This post was last modified: October 8, 2015 at 9:22 am by WinterHold.)
MNMP
Quote:The Satanic Verses are a well known story. The story is mentioned in various places, notably in al-Tabarī. It is not a story created by Kathirs against Muhammad as it is reported by believers themselves. It inspired the infamous book of the same name, first published in 1988, by the Indian author Salman Rushdie. A Fatwa was issued allowing people to kill Salman Rushdie because many people didn't like his book (even though the book is fiction and only loosely based on the account in the Hadith etc.). Fortunately, he is still alive today.
It's still a Hadith after all..and my opinion about Hadiths is in my topic too. I searched for what Tabari had said; here it is in Arabic :
I don't follow these stuff. I never read the Tafsir unless I'm searching for the "linguistic narrative". But even in the "Tafsir"; many disagree with Tabari, take Al-Kortobi for example, who had another story to say :
Did you get my point ? welcome to the world of the Hadith : many tales, with no evidence which one is true.
I take nothing of that or believe it : all I believe is the verse itself :
( 52 ) And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke, Satan threw into it. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.
What did Satan throw ?
You can choose to go to the Hadiths, or just believe the verse like it is.
Quote:People have debated its authenticity many times. Many believers at least acknowledge the story. Here is a summary of the story:
The story is found in Buhkari though this version doesn't mention the Shaytan. The other two versions of the story (e.g. from al-Tabarī and Ibn Hisham) go like this. Either:
1. The Shaytan made Muhammad speak the names of the three Pagan goddesses (from al-Tabarī)
or 2. Muhammad was reciting Quran and Muhammad, in this instance, could not tell the difference between Jibrill and the Shaytan. The Shaytan pretended to be Jibrill and Muhammad fell for it and after the real Jibrill informed of what had happened Muhammad became very depressed.
People have claimed story is an example of a test from Allah to Muhammad.
In both versions, the Pagans heard Muhammad recite the names of the Pagan goddesses and began to join the believers in prayer. The believers, meanwhile, did not understand what was going on and where confused. Later, the verses were (supposedly) changed to the Quran 53:19-23 we see today. Other people have claimed Muhammad was trying to make the Pagans happy by acknowledging their deities and later retracted the verses and use the story as proof the Quran has been changed.
Hadiths, Hadiths.. My argument against this is the same argument I give any Sunni : I don't believe Hadiths foretold based on "tales".
Quote:But let's put that website aside for one moment. The Quran (2:127) says the Kaaba was originally built by Abraham. If evidence was found that Mecca is as old the Quran says, don't you think the Saudis would yell about it? It would certainly be checkmate for the Bible if one could demonstrate people have been going on pilgrimage to Mecca for that long. Yet we can't even be sure Abraham existed. True, there are lots of people who we can't say for certain existed, but this is Abraham. Abraham is important.
You still consider the Sauds to be "dedicated Muslims" ? they hate this religion more than anything else, their acts prove it, and I told you already they only use this faith as a blanket.
They are "Nomadic tribal people", who suffer from the worst inferiority complexes of all times. They demolished lots of archaeological sites that could've come in huge favor for Islam.
But to non-believers..if Abraham is proved, you have "Jinn's" to prove next..if Jinn's are proved, you have "angels"..if angels are proved, you have God himself..
Yes..certainty..
Quote:If Abraham didn't exist, then Muhammad can't claim him as an ancestor. This would cause all sorts of problems, obviously. The story of Abraham makes me sad because he was going to kill his own son because he thought god told him to. Disgusting.
He was that loyal; yes. Yet again, you should complete the verse :
(Sura 31 Verse 102 ) And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
What is disgusting to me though, is neglecting the whole verse, especially the underlined part, and the son's sentence, to make Abraham and the Quran -then all muslims- appear like serial killer crazies..
Okay.. I will remove the bold from the verses, and make the rest of the comment bold.
I have to quote when people say "Islam SAYS this" and they're wrong; I gotta show them the right thing; what Islam REALLY says.
Quote:The Satanic Verses are a well known story. The story is mentioned in various places, notably in al-Tabarī. It is not a story created by Kathirs against Muhammad as it is reported by believers themselves. It inspired the infamous book of the same name, first published in 1988, by the Indian author Salman Rushdie. A Fatwa was issued allowing people to kill Salman Rushdie because many people didn't like his book (even though the book is fiction and only loosely based on the account in the Hadith etc.). Fortunately, he is still alive today.
It's still a Hadith after all..and my opinion about Hadiths is in my topic too. I searched for what Tabari had said; here it is in Arabic :
I don't follow these stuff. I never read the Tafsir unless I'm searching for the "linguistic narrative". But even in the "Tafsir"; many disagree with Tabari, take Al-Kortobi for example, who had another story to say :
Did you get my point ? welcome to the world of the Hadith : many tales, with no evidence which one is true.
I take nothing of that or believe it : all I believe is the verse itself :
( 52 ) And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke, Satan threw into it. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.
What did Satan throw ?
You can choose to go to the Hadiths, or just believe the verse like it is.
Quote:People have debated its authenticity many times. Many believers at least acknowledge the story. Here is a summary of the story:
The story is found in Buhkari though this version doesn't mention the Shaytan. The other two versions of the story (e.g. from al-Tabarī and Ibn Hisham) go like this. Either:
1. The Shaytan made Muhammad speak the names of the three Pagan goddesses (from al-Tabarī)
or 2. Muhammad was reciting Quran and Muhammad, in this instance, could not tell the difference between Jibrill and the Shaytan. The Shaytan pretended to be Jibrill and Muhammad fell for it and after the real Jibrill informed of what had happened Muhammad became very depressed.
People have claimed story is an example of a test from Allah to Muhammad.
In both versions, the Pagans heard Muhammad recite the names of the Pagan goddesses and began to join the believers in prayer. The believers, meanwhile, did not understand what was going on and where confused. Later, the verses were (supposedly) changed to the Quran 53:19-23 we see today. Other people have claimed Muhammad was trying to make the Pagans happy by acknowledging their deities and later retracted the verses and use the story as proof the Quran has been changed.
Hadiths, Hadiths.. My argument against this is the same argument I give any Sunni : I don't believe Hadiths foretold based on "tales".
Quote:But let's put that website aside for one moment. The Quran (2:127) says the Kaaba was originally built by Abraham. If evidence was found that Mecca is as old the Quran says, don't you think the Saudis would yell about it? It would certainly be checkmate for the Bible if one could demonstrate people have been going on pilgrimage to Mecca for that long. Yet we can't even be sure Abraham existed. True, there are lots of people who we can't say for certain existed, but this is Abraham. Abraham is important.
You still consider the Sauds to be "dedicated Muslims" ? they hate this religion more than anything else, their acts prove it, and I told you already they only use this faith as a blanket.
They are "Nomadic tribal people", who suffer from the worst inferiority complexes of all times. They demolished lots of archaeological sites that could've come in huge favor for Islam.
But to non-believers..if Abraham is proved, you have "Jinn's" to prove next..if Jinn's are proved, you have "angels"..if angels are proved, you have God himself..
Yes..certainty..
Quote:If Abraham didn't exist, then Muhammad can't claim him as an ancestor. This would cause all sorts of problems, obviously. The story of Abraham makes me sad because he was going to kill his own son because he thought god told him to. Disgusting.
He was that loyal; yes. Yet again, you should complete the verse :
(Sura 31 Verse 102 ) And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
What is disgusting to me though, is neglecting the whole verse, especially the underlined part, and the son's sentence, to make Abraham and the Quran -then all muslims- appear like serial killer crazies..
All of the hadiths, all of the Koran, and all of the Bible as well as every other "holy book" is pure imaginary BS totally lacking in reality. The hadiths were written centuries after Mohammed supposedly bit the dust. They are total fabrications.
Yes ! exactly ! The Hadiths are mainly fabrications, many of them is mere tales told by people we don't even know; with a shiny "the prophet of allah said" sentence, presiding the text. Nothing more than that. My topic is literally just that.
Though, why make the statement too broad to contain everything else ?
It's totally not pretty to judge a book by its cover; or hence : judge it by what others say about it.
October 10, 2015 at 3:20 pm (This post was last modified: October 10, 2015 at 3:34 pm by ReptilianPeon.)
Sorry for my late reply,
I'm not sure I'd consider the Saudis dedicated believers considering how many barbaric sex acts (and then claimed diplomatic immunity for), and well, crime in general, Saudi royalty has committed recently. They treat the people of the Yemen like Allah treated the people of Ad.
But I'm not Allah. So I'm not qualified to judge believers. And neither are you. Allah might happen to think that most Saudis are perfectly good believers, but we don't know that. We are not the best of judges, correct?
Quran 95:8 Is not Allah the wisest of judges?
Maybe I will join the al-Saud family in the hellfire or maybe they will end up in Jannah. Or maybe I will be in Jannah whilst the al-Saud family is in the hellfire. It would be a shame if the al-Saud family made to Jannah. But none of us know if that will happen, and to claim otherwise is wrong.
The Quran says this in relation to Jinns:
Quran 15:27 And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.
Also Quran 55:15:
And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:
So we would expect to see evidence of Jinns because fire is a result of chemical reaction. Fire is not a substance in same way say, Carbon or plastic is. But we do not see evidence of Jinns.
Edit:
In regard to Satanic Verses incident, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there are Tafsir that claim that Quran 22:52 was revealed by Allah because Satan tricked people by revealing the verses about the Pagan goddesses. So some well known scholars acknowledge the incident. http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/22.52
Quran 22:52 Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
