Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(September 25, 2015 at 7:12 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I only replied to your broad statement. But true, it is a distraction from the main topic.
We better discuss the main topic only.
If you have any other "broad statements" about me, you can PM me, or open a separate topic for that.
Your reply also had nothing to do with the 'broad statements' I made; all true by the way. My comment was for the benefit of someone that was unfamiliar with your particular style of interaction here.
You should busy yourself with my cow/pig shit analogy.
(September 26, 2015 at 5:35 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:
Why couldn't the Quran be easy like the Bible? Oh well. Completely forgot you don't like Hadiths, and I have to agree with you that Hadiths are not a good source of information - for the most part (they contain some funny/curious things, like Muhammad expressing his dislike of Chess).
However, not using Hadith does create all sorts of problems. How do you know to pray five times a day? Most of the details for the story of Muhammad's Night Journey (through the seven heavens) come from the Hadith.
You need the Hadith to get the specifics of Salat and for the Sharia. How would you properly follow the Sunnah without any Hadith? Even if one is not Sunni, and either Ibadi or Shia, you would still see Muhammad as an example and use their Hadith collections to follow his example.
Moving on to the story of Moses now:
Given all of the disproportionate suffering Allah inflicted on innocent Egyptians (e.g. children), who may not have necessarily agreed with the Pharaoh, I probably would have disobeyed Allah too and pointed out the unfairness. Why didn't Allah simply do a Quran 13:13 on the Pharaoh or the royal palace instead of killing powerless Egyptians? It would have been so much simpler.
Quran 13:13 Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will.. yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!
Quran 20:86 So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?"
If I was Allah, I would have prevented them from becoming slaves in the first place. That way, no innocent Egyptians get killed and nobody gets their free will taken away. I would be a deity that doesn't just assert that humans get free will; I would defend it too. So when people are taken as slaves I would condemn the slave masters.
I do find it ironic that Allah didn't like the followers of Moses being kept as slaves and gives details in the Quran on keeping slaves. Why the double standard? Like in Muhammad's day, everyone in Pharaoh's day was taking slaves.
There are plenty of Iyaht on the subject of slavery in the Quran. You can say "the Quran had specific rules for how slaves to be treated" or how the freeing of slaves is a great act, etc. And that's fine, but would you keep a slave if given the chance? If not, why not?
I'm sure if you went to the Yemen and abducted some Akhdam for yourself, nobody, besides the immediate family, would care. Or, if people of colour aren't your thing, how about some Zabaleen? The Fascist Egyptian government has treated the Zabaleen terribly so maybe you can give them a better life as a slave? For example, they took away all of their pigs and used Swine Flu as the excuse. And then there was chaos, because it turns out pigs are not actually that bad, or at least not as bad as the Quran claims they are.
Quote:Why couldn't the Quran be easy like the Bible? Oh well. Completely forgot you don't like Hadiths, and I have to agree with you that Hadiths are not a good source of information - for the most part (they contain some funny/curious things, like Muhammad expressing his dislike of Chess).
However, not using Hadith does create all sorts of problems. How do you know to pray five times a day? Most of the details for the story of Muhammad's Night Journey (through the seven heavens) come from the Hadith.
You need the Hadith to get the specifics of Salat and for the Sharia. How would you properly follow the Sunnah without any Hadith? Even if one is not Sunni, and either Ibadi or Shia, you would still see Muhammad as an example and use their Hadith collections to follow his example.
It is is easy; as a matter in fact, it only requires opening up and reading, and that's it.
Then again I should point out to a mistake in your statement; making chess "forbidden" is an opinion of a scholar, there wasn't a single Hadith referring to the game.
The rest of your statement after the "chess", is actually wrong. The law "or as you call it sharia" is mentioned in the Quran, so from it one can actually know all the pillars of the law; yet how to practice the act itself can be fetched from the inherited habits.
As all nations in this world, all do keep a certain heritage (you can take the red Indians as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_religion ), as Islam originated in Mecca & Madina, the natives there inherit the prayer & the other topics of the "law". Their practices can be validated against the Quran, and then one would practice without fear of forgery.
Though if you follow the Hadith, you actually get a different style of prayer (like the Shia way of prayer).
And then again, the Hadith collections are a minefield. Nobody said you wouldn't find something "true" in there as it is a collection of "talks & tales"; but the problem is (as my topic clearly said), was the "people who lied and told false tales to mutate the religion depending on their needs".
Quote:Given all of the disproportionate suffering Allah inflicted on innocent Egyptians (e.g. children), who may not have necessarily agreed with the Pharaoh, I probably would have disobeyed Allah too and pointed out the unfairness. Why didn't Allah simply do a Quran 13:13 on the Pharaoh or the royal palace instead of killing powerless Egyptians? It would have been so much simpler.
Quran 13:13 Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will.. yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!
This is off topic, but to answer some points :
-The pharaoh was the one who inflicted those acts; not God. God was only the architect of fate that brought pharaoh as leader when those people existed too.
-This life was always meant to be a testing ground for humanity against Satan. In other words; whom would they obey ? God, or Satan ?
-As the pharaoh was obeying Satan, it was expected from him to do so. Yet, are the people of Moses (including Moses himself) would obey God or Satan ?
It was a mere test.
Eventually, the real life of which God would "judge humanity directly", then lead them to either paradise or Hell, is known as "the afterlife", there, the pharaoh and his armies, along with Moses and his people, along with me & you, would stand still & recall what we did in this life, then God gives us his sentence.
There, the test ends. Actually, that's the main point -if not the main & only objective too- of the Quran.
Quote:Quran 20:86 So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?"
Your chronological order of the verses is wrong.
This verse happened before 20:86 :
"Then the Pharaoh followed them with his army, but the sea overpowered and engulfed them."
Hence, it's the same sura..make sure to go back a few pages/verses to know how the story went from the beginning.
Actually God did give the people of Moses their victory. Which is why Moses was angry on his people.
Quote:If I was Allah, I would have prevented them from becoming slaves in the first place. That way, no innocent Egyptians get killed and nobody gets their free will taken away. I would be a deity that doesn't just assert that humans get free will; I would defend it too. So when people are taken as slaves I would condemn the slave masters.
This is not paradise. It's a testing ground where humans see what awaits them if God wasn't in control. And even though God still brings the rain, makes the sun shine, blossoms the flowers & comforts us with hours of sleeping -breaks from this heavy test-, it is still grim..
Quote:I do find it ironic that Allah didn't like the followers of Moses being kept as slaves and gives details in the Quran on keeping slaves. Why the double standard? Like in Muhammad's day, everyone in Pharaoh's day was taking slaves.
There are plenty of Iyaht on the subject of slavery in the Quran. You can say "the Quran had specific rules for how slaves to be treated" or how the freeing of slaves is a great act, etc. And that's fine, but would you keep a slave if given the chance? If not, why not?
The Quran actually, orders Muslims to free slaves. The term "Molk Yameen" is about housing a person who doesn't have any kind of other home or source of income.
Being that, nothing obligates to live a slave's life; they are in the rank of a refugee. Instead of putting them in "camps", house them with a Muslim family, and with that they turn into "Molk Yameen" : they get a home, a steady source of income.
As for slaves, please don't ignore this command from the Quran :
Sura 90 : Verse 13
(Verse 11) Yet he has not assaulted the steep;
(Verse 12) And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?-
(Verse 13) (It is) to free a slave,
Though the Hadiths, did indeed forge & mutate to support "slavery" even though the Quran said the above..Of course MrNoMorePropaganda as I said in my topic, they couldn't bear a book that orders them to free slaves. So they would turn "Molk Yameen" into "Abd", indeed. Then throw it on Mohammed and say : when he said Molk Yameen, he meant "Abd".
Quote:I'm sure if you went to the Yemen and abducted some Akhdam for yourself, nobody, besides the immediate family, would care. Or, if people of colour aren't your thing, how about some Zabaleen? The Fascist Egyptian government has treated the Zabaleen terribly so maybe you can give them a better life as a slave? For example, they took away all of their pigs and used Swine Flu as the excuse. And then there was chaos, because it turns out pigs are not actually that bad, or at least not as bad as the Quran claims they are.
Sorry the Quran forbids me from doing so.. never been into slavery anyways.
Hey, after all, a slave can't take slaves, right ? aren't we all slaves under the fat cats who have the 50% of the world's wealth ? http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/20...n-poorest/
But yeah, the Quran is the one that encourages slavery..Ironic ain't it ? in terms of research though, not a single verse in the Quran orders you to take slaves; be my guest & search.
Though if you come back with a "Molk Yameen" verse, remember what I said above, though I don't mind telling the difference again between THAT & SLAVERY. Unless you consider housing a poor individual with your family as slavery.
September 28, 2015 at 4:46 am (This post was last modified: September 28, 2015 at 4:53 am by ReptilianPeon.)
I think if we met somewhere other than Atheist Forums we'd probably be friends. I remember there was this nice poem about an Englishman who met a German in a pub during World War One, I think it was, and he knew that if he met him on the battlefield they would certainly not be friends. Not that I consider this forum a battlefield. As we're here, I will try my best to present an argument.
In regard to those Hadirh about Chess: I don't know why, but they randomly came into my head. Yes, I was incorrect. I checked, and ther are a few Hadith, and you're correct that it was not Muhammad.
I really don't like Hadith precisely because it is a minefield, as you so eloquently put it yourself. If I start quoting Hadith someone doesn't think are authentic then I'm wasting my time. It's always best to stick to Quran in my opinion.
Quran: You have Tafsir for Iyaht, some Iyaht being related to certain Hadith, some people like to check what the Sahabah said and might also have to consider the time period the Tasfir was written in, and be mindful of the translation too. I don't like post science in the Quran narrative Qurans because I think they are biased and translated by Saudi stooges.
Moses story:
So Allah tests people by allowing many to die? I'm not sure I like how dismissive you are of mass killing. Like how when those hundreds of people died in Mecca this month (from the crane collapse and stampede)?
But let's examine this test narrative more closely:
Why test the followers of Moses in this way but not the followers of others? Isn't it interesting that all of the stories in the Quran are confined to this tiny section of the Earth? Why didn't Allah test the followers of Confucius or Buddha?
Every test is unique, which I don't think is fair. Don't you think that if life was really a test then there would be a standard set of circumstances? Teachers don't give their students different exams depending on how much they want a particular student to suffer. Every student in a class does the same test and they are judged against a standard set of criteria. So I reiterate: Life is not a fair test.
Quran 20:86
Fine; let's not dwell on that. But what I will say is that nothing happens except that which Allah wills; that's why people say insha'Allah all the time. So everything that happened was because of Allah.
Allah didn't have to create Satan in the first place. Satan knows that it will eventually lose. So why bother to fight Allah at all? Why defy Allah when you know it's impossible to win?
In regard to slavery:
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. A deity that allows slavery to take place must not value free will. If my free will was taken away by a kidnapper Allah would do nothing because apparently the free will of criminal(s) is more important than the free will of the victims.
Is Allah putting me in the position of helping to test a person if I were to take away their free will in some way? What if I don't want to? You're saying Allah allowed Satan to control Pharaoh and took away their free will. Of course, the Quran says that humans were created weak so we can't be expected to fight against Satan (even though we are).
What I was hoping for is a condemnation of slavery, and I think your answer is sufficient. At least you're argument is somewhat better than Christians don't want to condemn slavery. They just dismiss it as “Old Testament”, as if that's an argument.
The Quran might not tell people to keep slaves (something I'd dispute), but does it expressly tell them not to keep slaves? In some verses, the Quran worded in such a way like it knows people around Muhammad take/have slaves. Quran 33:55 mentions slaves, as does Quran 33:50.
Try telling telling the Arab slave traders of old that the Quran tells them to free slaves. Quickly, you'll find that Quran interpretation is often driven by one's desires. Did you know that people used the Bible to both attack and support slavery? Some people asserted (and probably still do) the Bible allows slaves and that's how the American Civil War started.
But in regard to your comments about wealth: No, we're not all slaves. But I think we need to define what a slave is. I think you're confusing slavery with oppression. True, many slaves are oppressed – but simply because someone is oppressed doesn't mean they are slave. When I think of slaves I think of the Arab or Atlantic slave trades.
If people have the will they can change things. We saw it in Cuba, for example. Cuba was dominated by imperialism for much of its history and then they had their revolution. And now Cubans live free from the rich elites that would like to dominate poor countries. In fact, things are so good in Cuba now that Cubans can expect to live just as long as Americans. Personally, I would much rather live in Cuba than under the Sharia.
I'm not saying living where I am now is bad. However I do realize that exploitation of poor people helps to maintain the standard of living in my country. This saddens me and I hope it changes. I do my best avoid retailers that exploit poor people.
Quote:I think if we met somewhere other than Atheist Forums we'd probably be friends. I remember there was this nice poem about an Englishman who met a German in a pub during World War One, I think it was, and he knew that if he met him on the battlefield they would certainly not be friends. Not that I consider this forum a battlefield. As we're here, I will try my best to present an argument.
If you can say "people with different opinions", enemy is a big word. Though AF do indeed turns into a battlefield a lot, or more of a "minefield", but you know that's what humans should do be friends , as broad as the previous statement might appear, this can be enough to stop all our problems..Imagine the new horizons that might've sprung if all the enemies in one battlefield knew each other in a non-lethal ground.
So who's "ze german" and who's "saving private Ryan" ? :p
Quote:I really don't like Hadith precisely because it is a minefield, as you so eloquently put it yourself. If I start quoting Hadith someone doesn't think are authentic then I'm wasting my time. It's always best to stick to Quran in my opinion.
Being the source, if a contradiction was found in the Quran it will bring down the whole religion to ruins, without having to go through tens of thousands of Hadiths. And then again, each Muslim sect has its own set of acceptable & rejected Hadiths, technically yes : you will be wasting a lot of time.
1400 years weren't enough to solve the arguments between sects; which is all based on the Hadiths.
Quote:Quran: You have Tafsir for Iyaht, some Iyaht being related to certain Hadith, some people like to check what the Sahabah said and might also have to consider the time period the Tasfir was written in, and be mindful of the translation too. I don't like post science in the Quran narrative Qurans because I think they are biased and translated by Saudi stooges.
Tafsir (interpretation), is one way to check the different opinion about the verses. The problem in it, is that the different sects don't allow one to interpret by the themselves; restricting the individual to a narrow pass.
But personally, I never listened to them; rather I think the most logical way is to read & judge by both common sense & logic, without giving delusion a way into the conclusion.
About the "science of the Quran", it has this "twisting the verse to match a certain scientific theory or fact", that's why I don't like it too, though Saudies don't have what it takes to even come up with such theories, they had a long history of fighting them publicly in a hilarious way :
Or through embedded warnings against people who "spread such Quran science theories".
Let it be known of course, that the "religious" Wahhabies are almost against all types of science.
Quote:Moses story:
So Allah tests people by allowing many to die? I'm not sure I like how dismissive you are of mass killing. Like how when those hundreds of people died in Mecca this month (from the crane collapse and stampede)?
Nobody was meant to be immortal after all.. It's cold, grim and sad. But this life was never meant to be "lived"; at least to my personal opinion after reading the Quran.
With that already a fact -nobody knows when their death might come; nothing guaranteed-, belief in the afterlife injects optimism into the blood, yet that can't come without "doing good in this life", since the afterlife contains a hell that awaits sinners.
The death we see everyday -that touches believers & nonbelievers alike-, is the reminder that God left for the living. Flowers die too, so as animals, so as plants. It is sentenced on us to learn from it.
Quote:Every test is unique, which I don't think is fair. Don't you think that if life was really a test then there would be a standard set of circumstances? Teachers don't give their students different exams depending on how much they want a particular student to suffer. Every student in a class does the same test and they are judged against a standard set of criteria. So I reiterate: Life is not a fair test.
The standard is actually uniform : Birth & dying out on the start & end, while in between a standard set of events happen, all equal to each other.
In terms of conclusion at least.. It's all about accumulation, like this example :
Mohammed, Jack, Sonya, Rachel, Ali, David & Hideo were all born in wealthy families.
While Khalid, Robert, Selena, Maya, Cassie & Omar were all born in poor families in a war tormented region.
If wealthy individuals above thought about the hunger and misery their brethren are going through, decided to help, the efforts of them all would be accumulated to reach their needy buddies.
At the same time, if the second needy group stopped the fights between each other, accepted the help of others, and worked together, they will achieve a better life for themselves & escape the torment they fell under.
If for example one of the two groups -only- decided to do good, then that is the one who shall win it all in the afterlife. Both groups are actually facing the same exam without them knowing it : to fight greed & selfishness. The wealthy -under the influence of wealth- can be as greedy as the poor under the influence of poverty & misery.
In terms of judgement in the afterlife, everybody would get judged individually, according to their own specific exam. About this life, it's all about the efforts of the group combined. The Quran still leaves a door open to the intervention of God at any specific point to aid whomever he sees fit. And the promise was always given to those who do good.
Yet, if the individual didn't do "enough" out of laziness, greed, selfishness, then...I always imagine that's why this exam is so hard.
Quote:Fine; let's not dwell on that. But what I will say is that nothing happens except that which Allah wills; that's why people say insha'Allah all the time. So everything that happened was because of Allah.
The as I side note I thought you'll appreciate, the origin of saying that word came from this verse :
Sura 18
( 23 ) And never say of anything, "Indeed, I will do that tomorrow,"
( 24 ) Except "If Allah wills." And remember your Lord when you forget it and say, "Perhaps my Lord will guide me to what is nearer than this to right conduct."
About what you said. If God allowed something to happen, it doesn't mean "he personally did it". This examination allows the possibility of somebody massacring masses of people, it's that flexible. He just allowed it to happen while he could've stopped it. He also created the tools that allow it to happen, yet he didn't do it by his hands.
A human being with a free will, chose to to do it.
Just like the incident at the holly mosque. The Saudi officials KNOW it's too risky to put cranes up that height, let alone the news of an approaching storm was already in the air, and it was already enough since they turned Mecca into Las Vegas. Yet they didn't listen, and caused a brutal death to 200 people.
Followed by the Menna Incident, one of the rumors is that a Saudi "royal convoy" passed by the place, which had one of its passes "shut closed" for security reasons. Which lead to the death of 700 people.
Saudies did technically, not God.
Quote:Allah didn't have to create Satan in the first place. Satan knows that it will eventually lose. So why bother to fight Allah at all? Why defy Allah when you know it's impossible to win?
He hated & despised humans; he wanted to take as many as possible to hell. He didn't fight God; he knew he already lost before the fight even starts; actually it was a matter of jealousy.. check this verse :
Sura 7 Verses 12-18
( 12 ) [Allah] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."
( 13 ) [Allah] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.
( 14 ) [Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."
( 15 ) [Allah] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."
( 16 ) [Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.
( 17 ) Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."
( 18 ) [Allah] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."
That's why he made a final wish : "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected.". Vengeance, that was all. He always aims to get individuals to hell.
And that's why the exam started in the first place.
About creating him, every creature must get their chance, along with a full-free will. Satan turned mad after Adam, though he was an angel before him. Adam & Eve were Satan's test. which he failed miserably.
Quote:I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. A deity that allows slavery to take place must not value free will. If my free will was taken away by a kidnapper Allah would do nothing because apparently the free will of criminal(s) is more important than the free will of the victims.
Is Allah putting me in the position of helping to test a person if I were to take away their free will in some way? What if I don't want to? You're saying Allah allowed Satan to control Pharaoh and took away their free will. Of course, the Quran says that humans were created weak so we can't be expected to fight against Satan (even though we are).
weak against storms, maybe.. but not against a demon described himself as being weak :
( Sura 4 Verse 76 ) Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut. So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak.
And the pharaoh..Satan can't control nobody, unless that somebody opened their minds for him to control. This verse :
Sura 43 Verses 36-38
( 36 ) And whoever is blinded from remembrance of the Most Merciful - We appoint for him a devil, and he is to him a companion.
( 37 ) And indeed, the devils avert them from the way [of guidance] while they think that they are [rightly] guided
( 38 ) Until, when he comes to Us [at Judgement], he says [to his companion], "Oh, I wish there was between me and you the distance between the two sunrises - how wretched a companion."
About slavery, again it's a human sin that humans by priority need to to end first. The Quran prevented the act, yet to forged by humans once again.
Today, God guided a non-muslim to end it and so he did, though mark my words soon enough it will visit our world again once this civilization starts to crumble.
All I can say is this : humans were created in hardship. Yet, why didn't the free humans think by themselves to free their enslaved brethren ? A sin that all the ancients had on their backs.
Quote:The Quran might not tell people to keep slaves (something I'd dispute), but does it expressly tell them not to keep slaves? In some verses, the Quran worded in such a way like it knows people around Muhammad take/have slaves. Quran 33:55 mentions slaves, as does Quran 33:50.
With a specific verse ? no.
But the evidence of its condemning is pretty obvious. When people commit sins in Islam, they must do a "expiation" to remove it; an expiation must be a good act; specific too.
For example, if one broke their oath, they must expiate by "freeing a slave", Sura 5 Verse 89 . If taking slaves was okay, then how do Muslims expiate via freeing them ?
Then again, the verses you brought contain the word "Molk al Yameen" which through the hadith turned into "Abd = slave". Taking it by literal meaning,
Molk=possession,
al yameen = oath
I don't know how that turned into "slave = abd".
The scenario I draw in my mind, is the same I told you in a previous comment : poor people who swear oaths to serve a certain household/person. These are not "slaves" who were purchased. I truly think Arabs in the past couldn't bear such a rule, since it eliminates slavery, thus came up with as much hadiths as possible to twist the word "molk al yameen" into "slave".
Yameen refers to the right side, but in all the cases Molk Al Yameen was mentioned, it referred to the oath..the plural of yameen (ayman) means "oaths".
The rest if your comment is savored for later. I spent hours writing this one don't think I ignored the rest; I will come back to it.
Quote:Why couldn't the Quran be easy like the Bible? Oh well. Completely forgot you don't like Hadiths, and I have to agree with you that Hadiths are not a good source of information - for the most part (they contain some funny/curious things, like Muhammad expressing his dislike of Chess).
However, not using Hadith does create all sorts of problems. How do you know to pray five times a day? Most of the details for the story of Muhammad's Night Journey (through the seven heavens) come from the Hadith.
You need the Hadith to get the specifics of Salat and for the Sharia. How would you properly follow the Sunnah without any Hadith? Even if one is not Sunni, and either Ibadi or Shia, you would still see Muhammad as an example and use their Hadith collections to follow his example.
It is is easy; as a matter in fact, it only requires opening up and reading, and that's it.
Then again I should point out to a mistake in your statement; making chess "forbidden" is an opinion of a scholar, there wasn't a single Hadith referring to the game.
The rest of your statement after the "chess", is actually wrong. The law "or as you call it sharia" is mentioned in the Quran, so from it one can actually know all the pillars of the law; yet how to practice the act itself can be fetched from the inherited habits.
As all nations in this world, all do keep a certain heritage (you can take the red Indians as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_religion ), as Islam originated in Mecca & Madina, the natives there inherit the prayer & the other topics of the "law". Their practices can be validated against the Quran, and then one would practice without fear of forgery.
Though if you follow the Hadith, you actually get a different style of prayer (like the Shia way of prayer).
And then again, the Hadith collections are a minefield. Nobody said you wouldn't find something "true" in there as it is a collection of "talks & tales"; but the problem is (as my topic clearly said), was the "people who lied and told false tales to mutate the religion depending on their needs".
Quote:Given all of the disproportionate suffering Allah inflicted on innocent Egyptians (e.g. children), who may not have necessarily agreed with the Pharaoh, I probably would have disobeyed Allah too and pointed out the unfairness. Why didn't Allah simply do a Quran 13:13 on the Pharaoh or the royal palace instead of killing powerless Egyptians? It would have been so much simpler.
Quran 13:13 Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will.. yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!
This is off topic, but to answer some points :
-The pharaoh was the one who inflicted those acts; not God. God was only the architect of fate that brought pharaoh as leader when those people existed too.
-This life was always meant to be a testing ground for humanity against Satan. In other words; whom would they obey ? God, or Satan ?
-As the pharaoh was obeying Satan, it was expected from him to do so. Yet, are the people of Moses (including Moses himself) would obey God or Satan ?
It was a mere test.
Eventually, the real life of which God would "judge humanity directly", then lead them to either paradise or Hell, is known as "the afterlife", there, the pharaoh and his armies, along with Moses and his people, along with me & you, would stand still & recall what we did in this life, then God gives us his sentence.
There, the test ends. Actually, that's the main point -if not the main & only objective too- of the Quran.
Quote:Quran 20:86 So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?"
Your chronological order of the verses is wrong.
This verse happened before 20:86 :
"Then the Pharaoh followed them with his army, but the sea overpowered and engulfed them."
Hence, it's the same sura..make sure to go back a few pages/verses to know how the story went from the beginning.
Actually God did give the people of Moses their victory. Which is why Moses was angry on his people.
Quote:If I was Allah, I would have prevented them from becoming slaves in the first place. That way, no innocent Egyptians get killed and nobody gets their free will taken away. I would be a deity that doesn't just assert that humans get free will; I would defend it too. So when people are taken as slaves I would condemn the slave masters.
This is not paradise. It's a testing ground where humans see what awaits them if God wasn't in control. And even though God still brings the rain, makes the sun shine, blossoms the flowers & comforts us with hours of sleeping -breaks from this heavy test-, it is still grim..
Quote:I do find it ironic that Allah didn't like the followers of Moses being kept as slaves and gives details in the Quran on keeping slaves. Why the double standard? Like in Muhammad's day, everyone in Pharaoh's day was taking slaves.
There are plenty of Iyaht on the subject of slavery in the Quran. You can say "the Quran had specific rules for how slaves to be treated" or how the freeing of slaves is a great act, etc. And that's fine, but would you keep a slave if given the chance? If not, why not?
Quote:The Quran actually, orders Muslims to free slaves. The term "Molk Yameen" is about housing a person who doesn't have any kind of other home or source of income.
Being that, nothing obligates to live a slave's life; they are in the rank of a refugee. Instead of putting them in "camps", house them with a Muslim family, and with that they turn into "Molk Yameen" : they get a home, a steady source of income.
As for slaves, please don't ignore this command from the Quran :
Sura 90 : Verse 13
(Verse 11) Yet he has not assaulted the steep;
(Verse 12) And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?-
(Verse 13) (It is) to free a slave,
Though the Hadiths, did indeed forge & mutate to support "slavery" even though the Quran said the above..Of course MrNoMorePropaganda as I said in my topic, they couldn't bear a book that orders them to free slaves. So they would turn "Molk Yameen" into "Abd", indeed. Then throw it on Mohammed and say : when he said Molk Yameen, he meant "Abd".
Quote:I'm sure if you went to the Yemen and abducted some Akhdam for yourself, nobody, besides the immediate family, would care. Or, if people of colour aren't your thing, how about some Zabaleen? The Fascist Egyptian government has treated the Zabaleen terribly so maybe you can give them a better life as a slave? For example, they took away all of their pigs and used Swine Flu as the excuse. And then there was chaos, because it turns out pigs are not actually that bad, or at least not as bad as the Quran claims they are.
Sorry the Quran forbids me from doing so.. never been into slavery anyways.
Hey, after all, a slave can't take slaves, right ? aren't we all slaves under the fat cats who have the 50% of the world's wealth ? http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/20...n-poorest/
But yeah, the Quran is the one that encourages slavery..Ironic ain't it ? in terms of research though, not a single verse in the Quran orders you to take slaves; be my guest & search.
Though if you come back with a "Molk Yameen" verse, remember what I said above, though I don't mind telling the difference again between THAT & SLAVERY. Unless you consider housing a poor individual with your family as slavery.
Quote:Try telling telling the Arab slave traders of old that the Quran tells them to free slaves. Quickly, you'll find that Quran interpretation is often driven by one's desires. Did you know that people used the Bible to both attack and support slavery? Some people asserted (and probably still do) the Bible allows slaves and that's how the American Civil War started.
Yes; that, a weight too heavy to bear, the religion -to their logic- couldn't keep its current state -that in the time of Mohammed-..it had to be forged.
I never knew the details about such thing -christianity & slavery-. Yet I'm aware that the confederation states allowed it -with a religious flavor-, but most my info came from the novel "uncle tom" & movies, to be honest.
Quote:But in regard to your comments about wealth: No, we're not all slaves. But I think we need to define what a slave is. I think you're confusing slavery with oppression. True, many slaves are oppressed – but simply because someone is oppressed doesn't mean they are slave. When I think of slaves I think of the Arab or Atlantic slave trades.
The argument about it is that it's a new form of slavery. Thinking about it in an abstract way, we are bound to be slaves to the brands and mega fast food chains, while being forced to act within a banking system that makes the fat cats fatter via loans with interest. Egypt is an example : the bankers keep offering loans until the debt is technically impossible to pay; Britian too has a loan that dates to hundreds of years, for a country stuck in such whirlwind, it has to offer the bankers and elite businessmen more ground to invest in (i.e selling its land), hence go to full-scale wars at sometimes to repay the debt..
Countries that get broken, literally send people to work as maids (since the income in the country at debt is too low), a case seen everyday in Saudi Araba with Bengali maids & workers who get scorched for days under the hot sun of Arabia just for the sake of a better income..
You can't take gold anywhere with you; too, to escape this economical imprisonment. I see it as a different type of slavery.
Do we really have a free will with such conditions ?
Quote:If people have the will they can change things. We saw it in Cuba, for example. Cuba was dominated by imperialism for much of its history and then they had their revolution. And now Cubans live free from the rich elites that would like to dominate poor countries. In fact, things are so good in Cuba now that Cubans can expect to live just as long as Americans. Personally, I would much rather live in Cuba than under the Sharia.
God bless the comandante
I remember reading his diary when I was a child -che-, until today I remember the miracle of his victory. What were the odds ? yes; if people stacked together for the right cause miracles can happen. And the cause of that movement was something good.
Yes, one of the most legit examples one might ever bring.. change can happen after all if people had the heart & will for it.
Honestly, I do too. Such country is better than a forged, fake sharia.
God never forgets those who did good. And that the cause that wins, no matter what.
Quote:I'm not saying living where I am now is bad. However I do realize that exploitation of poor people helps to maintain the standard of living in my country. This saddens me and I hope it changes. I do my best avoid retailers that exploit poor people.
We all must try our best within the conditions we were born to. I too don't like it where I'm. But ain't it the new world order that we have to live under ? all exploit all..
That video about the sun revolving the Earth…I'm too shocked. That's stupider than people who think Barrack Obama was not born in the United States. Whenever there is a transit of the planet Venus or Mercury we can know that they do not orbit the Earth. This is a clear case of someone denying reality because of what they believe.
On the subject of Saudi, I think you'll be inclined to agree when I say Mecca should be more like the Vatican. If the Vatican was part of Italy then the Italian government could exert their influence on it, which is exactly why the Vatican is a separate entity. Mecca should be a place for all people yet I hear stories of bookshops in Mecca distributing the Saudi narrative, e.g. anti-Sufi and anti-Shia literature. You're right, Saudi wants to turn Mecca into some kind of theme park (surrounded by lots of their propaganda).
I think the Saudi oil minister, Sheikh Zaki Yamani, put it best when he said: “the Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil Age will end long before the world runs out of oil”. So they realize they need other sources of income. I was shocked when I found out how much Saudi spends on Dawah. It goes into the billions. Think of all the starving people that could have been fed.
Let's move on.
Nobody was meant to be immortal, sure, but given recent advances in technology, it's looking increasingly likely that some people alive today will become immortal. People are talking about nanotechnology in the bloodstream, entire organs grown in a laboratory and very soon there will be a cure of cancer too. Did you know that there are certain types of organisms that are immortal? That means some humans may never be judged. By the time the universe comes to an end, I'm sure humanity will have found ways to avoid even that.
In fact, Wikipedia has an entire article on biological immortality. There are people out there, scientists, who seek to take the genes that make these organisms immortal and put it into humans. I believe there will come a day when people are periodically given new organs to keep them alive. There will be people alive today who may never die.
What I take away from all the pain and suffering in the world is that Allah loves us so much that Allah allowed us to harm ourselves. It's like you say with the crane at the Grand Mosque. Allah is allowing humans to harm themselves (even though humans were created weak).
We have free will and, by your own admission, Allah does not have the willingness to intervene in many situations so how can Allah be all good at the same time? How different do you think a universe with no god would be from our current universe? If Allah chooses not to intervene in all these circumstances then there might as well not be a god.
Allah is claimed to be 'all good' yet Allah does not have the willingness to stop excessive suffering (e.g. holocaust; Adolf Hitler was known to have good relations with Hasan al-Banna so maybe that can give us clues to Allah's absence in the situation). How can it be claimed that Allah is all good when suffering which is clearly unnecessary continues? There are ways of testing people without causing them any physical harm.
Like you say, there are lots of Earthly delights that tempt us. Naturally these would lead us away from Allah. So why couldn't Allah give humanity a much less painful test, say testing our knowledge of scripture or judge how well we have looked after our corner of the Earth? There's a thought: Why is the criteria for entering Jannah not based on our good deeds and instead based on whether or not we believe? There's every change that even if we pick the right religion that we picked the wrong branch of that religion.
It is humans who are putting an end to suffering, not Allah. We could have had the schematics for a fusion power planet ages ago and put an end to global warming, had Allah given it to us. But Allah chooses to do nothing even as the Ummah themselves die painful deaths. Where was Allah when Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab went around Arabia pillaging important shrines and other historical places?
Quran 2:256 grants freedom of religion but Allah was not helping to defend the freedoms the Quran says humanity should have. Not even the suffering Ummah, at the hands of the evil duo of Muhammad bin Saud and Abdul Wahaab, could Allah find the will to defend. And people tell me Allah is all good?
Moving on to slavery:
So there's nothing stopping me, if I wanted to be seen as a good believer, from stockpiling slaves and then freeing them as I deem necessary (e.g. freeing one whenever I break a promise)? You said people can use slaves in order to atone for their sins, so it would make sense for people to keep some slaves for themselves. But you also said slavery is a sin, though on what basis can you claim that? You also told me the Quran has no specific verses claims telling people not to keep slaves.
It's a sin to treat slaves badly, sure, but the Quran does not condemn the act of keeping people enslaved if they are treated well. If you go to the Islamic Republic of Mauritania you will find that something like every one in twenty people is a slave, so you will no doubt find people using the scriptures to justify the act of keeping slaves. They can say so, of course, because, as you said, Quran isn't explicit about not keeping slaves. Have a look at the global slavery index: http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/findings/
Interesting video:
Iowa Radio Host Defends Slavery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3QTCBrQ_Sk
So the slaves could become the collective property of the state and then I guess whenever there are sins that need to be forgiven, slaves could be released on behalf of the whole state?
When you say about the banks and modern society I think we have limited free will in that regard. We can still make some conscious decisions. I don't have to put my money with the big banks if I don't want to. I could put my money in a building society instead, or maybe the Islamic Bank in my country, if they'll have me.
Likewise, I don't have to go into the 'mega fast food chains'. For me at least, it's so much nicer to cook burgers at home. Even basic cookery skills can go a long way.
I still have some reliance on big business, but there are steps I can take to minimize cooperate influence on my life. I could walk more or go to the market in my town, for example; and buy local produce and help farmers get a better deal. And I can eat seasonably too. If we care about our planet we can all make changes to our lives.
Let's no go into New World Order. That sounds like crazy land. All I'm saying is we need to be more conscious of the world around us.
October 2, 2015 at 2:06 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2015 at 2:15 pm by WinterHold.)
Quote:Thank you for your patience,
That video about the sun revolving the Earth…I'm too shocked. That's stupider than people who think Barrack Obama was not born in the United States. Whenever there is a transit of the planet Venus or Mercury we can know that they do not orbit the Earth. This is a clear case of someone denying reality because of what they believe.
On the subject of Saudi, I think you'll be inclined to agree when I say Mecca should be more like the Vatican. If the Vatican was part of Italy then the Italian government could exert their influence on it, which is exactly why the Vatican is a separate entity. Mecca should be a place for all people yet I hear stories of bookshops in Mecca distributing the Saudi narrative, e.g. anti-Sufi and anti-Shia literature. You're right, Saudi wants to turn Mecca into some kind of theme park (surrounded by lots of their propaganda).
You are welcome.
About the video, it's how the Saudi religious institute acts. Wahhabism was built on ignorant nonsense, targeting science to prevent the native from learning, and use that education to overthrow the nomadic tribal family that rules the oil. Using religion as an opium, they keep them gassed & suppressed.
About Mecca,as a place of worship it should be for everybody. just to enrich your info more, It's not just about "bookshops"; Mecca is literally occupied by the Sauds, you can actually see the Saud's logo on the clock tower they built there (at the center of the clock) .
Aside from that, the holly mosque is filled with Wahhabi officials who follow the Saudi religious institute, ordering people around according the Wahhabi rules.
Also, it's prohibited for a non-Saudi to become the "Imam" of the mosque -i.e lead the people in the prayer-. And, each Friday prayer starts with "chanting & blessing for the Saudi king".
The clock tower they built contains hotels and malls, with sky-high prices; it's not the only hotel though; the cheapest room in Mecca now worth 400 S.R for the night, if you want to practice Haj, you must first register with a Haj campaign ( which to run; needs to pay a portion to the Saudi government ), if you come without registering with on of those, you're out & prevented from Haj or visiting the country for 5 years -.i.e banished for 5 years-. That alone without discussing the visa payment.
Quote:I think the Saudi oil minister, Sheikh Zaki Yamani, put it best when he said: “the Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil Age will end long before the world runs out of oil”. So they realize they need other sources of income. I was shocked when I found out how much Saudi spends on Dawah. It goes into the billions. Think of all the starving people that could have been fed.
Lust for thrones can make people spend even more. The Wahhabi Dawa is the only thing keeping them in the throne.
Quote:Nobody was meant to be immortal, sure, but given recent advances in technology, it's looking increasingly likely that some people alive today will become immortal. People are talking about nanotechnology in the bloodstream, entire organs grown in a laboratory and very soon there will be a cure of cancer too. Did you know that there are certain types of organisms that are immortal? That means some humans may never be judged. By the time the universe comes to an end, I'm sure humanity will have found ways to avoid even that.
My bet was always on how fast humans demolish what they built. If the modern culture was a constant, an everlasting state, maybe that would be a possibility. But when humanity is armed with atomic weapons, with a civilization posted on a weak economical system that already started to collapse in 2008, I start to have big doubts.
If you watch the political move of the world (combined with the military movements), you'll reach a conclusion that a spark might make fire start in regions. A respected point of view that many said & asserted with evidence. The Cuban missile crisis was just an example of a spark that missed the spot. 2008 was another spark that missed.
And this is not crazy land. The people behind this clock are (the members of the Science and Security Board of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists,[1] who are in turn advised by the Governing Board and the Board of Sponsors, including 18 Nobel Laureates).
We're still in the nuclear age.
As technology to immortality grows, technology to oblivion also grows.
Quote:In fact, Wikipedia has an entire article on biological immortality. There are people out there, scientists, who seek to take the genes that make these organisms immortal and put it into humans. I believe there will come a day when people are periodically given new organs to keep them alive. There will be people alive today who may never die.
Protecting one's genes against senescence, doesn't protect their skin or brain from being penetrated by a bullet, or a simple atomic blast or nuclear winter.
Unless it's about betting on the odds, that a climate change won't cause total annihilation before a war even breaks out.
Quote:What I take away from all the pain and suffering in the world is that Allah loves us so much that Allah allowed us to harm ourselves. It's like you say with the crane at the Grand Mosque. Allah is allowing humans to harm themselves (even though humans were created weak).
God is not a human. In modern Christianity for example, God is viewed as a loving Father, loving all humans equally, but I still think this is a false concept, that left an imprint on the view towards God in the world.
God is not human. He's a "creator". As I discussed slavery with you, all of us are actually slaves of God.
We live by his rules, either we liked or not. For example, food. We must eat, drink, if somebody refuses, they die out. We must use the sun & the moon or else we won't be able to grow crops & count our blessings from family members to the numbers of stars. Can you get angry on the sun for being there ? or for flowers only growing based on seasons ? as we view them as "laws of the universe; so as it is with God. He's not a human Father.
Yet, slavery to God is nothing that even compares to slavery to humans. With God.
Quote:We have free will and, by your own admission, Allah does not have the willingness to intervene in many situations so how can Allah be all good at the same time? How different do you think a universe with no god would be from our current universe? If Allah chooses not to intervene in all these circumstances then there might as well not be a god.
Following the above concept, along with the belief that this life is just a test, not intervening doesn't mean he is evil or bad. It simply means you have a road that you need to cross a big part of it under pressure. Pressure that might sometimes be fatal.
Quote:Allah is claimed to be 'all good' yet Allah does not have the willingness to stop excessive suffering (e.g. holocaust; Adolf Hitler was known to have good relations with Hasan al-Banna so maybe that can give us clues to Allah's absence in the situation). How can it be claimed that Allah is all good when suffering which is clearly unnecessary continues? There are ways of testing people without causing them any physical harm.
If harm didn't exist, it would just be a walk in the park after all. I would've became an atheist by now. His way, succeeded flawlessly, since a huge number of people deny him, or don't believe in him unless another God is included. To know how loyal your followers are, put them under pressure that can actually kills them. Those who go all the way, deserve it all.
Humans can't repay the dead (and a flag covered coffin is no repay); yet he; God, has a paradise. That's the price of this test.
And yet, many are tested without any of the sufferings of war.
And who said God is on the side of the Muslim Brotherhood ?
Quote:Like you say, there are lots of Earthly delights that tempt us. Naturally these would lead us away from Allah. So why couldn't Allah give humanity a much less painful test, say testing our knowledge of scripture or judge how well we have looked after our corner of the Earth? There's a thought: Why is the criteria for entering Jannah not based on our good deeds and instead based on whether or not we believe? There's every change that even if we pick the right religion that we picked the wrong branch of that religion.
A perfect ground for a fight between humans & Satan. A war was never meant to be easy.
About believing in God, I can only answer for those who received a message of some sort (in a correct way), telling them there's only one God to deserve worship, yet refused it. If somebody is ignorant, then their judgement is something I don't know :
( Sura 23 Verse 117 ) And whoever invokes besides God another deity for which he has no proof - then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed.
Quote:It is humans who are putting an end to suffering, not Allah. We could have had the schematics for a fusion power planet ages ago and put an end to global warming, had Allah given it to us. But Allah chooses to do nothing even as the Ummah themselves die painful deaths. Where was Allah when Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab went around Arabia pillaging important shrines and other historical places?
Aren't we the inheritors of this planet after all ?
( Sura 2 Verse 30 ) And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
God gave us all materials possible -hence;minds- to build up this land, yet we wasted it on wars and blind nationalism, invasions & enslavement of each other -even for the most stupid reasons : skin color-, still doing it until today in Iraq, Syria, America is the biggest example of a country wasting billions on a war machine enough to wipe out this planet & its climate twice, let's not add Russia & China so we don't cry in sorrow.
Nobody phrases it better than God himself :
( Sura 30 Verse 41 ) Corruption has appeared throughout the land and sea by [reason of] what the hands of people have earned so He may let them taste part of [the consequence of] what they have done that perhaps they will return [to righteousness].
Global warming took place because factories cannot stop burning to keep only a portion of this earth fat & obese, while millions are dying in hunger in Aftica. One person eating the share of 5 in one meal, drinking a super size soda from mac that is enough to keep a whole family alive in Afghanistan.
But yet, nothing is worse than somebody who forgets the deeds of his/her on hands, to blame it on somebody else, as God phrases it :
(Sura 18 Verse 57 ) And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.
Humans committed a lot of sins, MNMP. It's not God to blame. It is us.
Who supported Ibn Abd Al Wahhab's minions ? wasn't it Britian & pretty much all of the west, to destroy the ottoman empire from the inside ?
yet, his minions are still in power, backed and supported by super powers such as America, to the level of sending American soldiers to die in the desert of Arabia, to save the sauds and their oil from Saddam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
The judgement is in the afterlife, MNMP.
Quote:Moving on to slavery:
So there's nothing stopping me, if I wanted to be seen as a good believer, from stockpiling slaves and then freeing them as I deem necessary (e.g. freeing one whenever I break a promise)? You said people can use slaves in order to atone for their sins, so it would make sense for people to keep some slaves for themselves. But you also said slavery is a sin, though on what basis can you claim that? You also told me the Quran has no specific verses claims telling people not to keep slaves.
? I didn't quite get your meaning, but when you pay to free, it is not paying to "own" that's for sure : freeing means to simply pay the slave's price to set him free, not to own him ! doing what you said, is playing games with God; and that means hell; simply.
When did I say "use slaves" ? I said "free slaves"; literally, you can check my comment back.
Pay his price-burn his slavery document-he's free. Simple. If you pay to keep, then you didn't free nobody, you didn't quite "atone" for your sin; and probably punishment is already on it's way to you playing games with God.
The verse didn't point to slaves owned by YOU; rather, any slaves.
Though; moving now to the expiation and how it relates forbidding slavery.
If you stole food from a merchant, you cannot expiate by stealing again from him; you must return his food or money.
In other words, you can only expiate through something good.
If freeing slaves is something good -since it's an expiation-, then how does taking them in the first place is not a sin ?
Quote:It's a sin to treat slaves badly, sure, but the Quran does not condemn the act of keeping people enslaved if they are treated well. If you go to the Islamic Republic of Mauritania you will find that something like every one in twenty people is a slave, so you will no doubt find people using the scriptures to justify the act of keeping slaves. They can say so, of course, because, as you said, Quran isn't explicit about not keeping slaves. Have a look at the global slavery index: http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/findings/
I told you, I'm not a Sunni, those people don't represent me or my faith. They follow their Hadiths that allows them to do this freely.
My main topic is about forgery that happened to Islam. Instead of doing the above (observing the verses and know that the negation of an expiation is indeed a bad thing), they instead followed a hadith blindly.
People will use anything to justify anything. Believe me. People can justify "murder" via the typical excuse "she cheated on me !!", or "daddy didn't give me enough attention as a child".. Humans are that weird.
Quote:Interesting video:
When you say about the banks and modern society I think we have limited free will in that regard. We can still make some conscious decisions. I don't have to put my money with the big banks if I don't want to. I could put my money in a building society instead, or maybe the Islamic Bank in my country, if they'll have me.
3 minutes into that video and I was already disgusted.
About the money, where you put it is not the problem. you see, why I called it slavery, is that paper currency lose its worth through time. The 100 $ in the 60s is not the 100$ of today. Reaching a building society to invest in is too risky & needs lots of contacts, the money is also paper/digital, also prone to every inch devaluing. And gold ? they won't allow you to take it with you anywhere.
Quote:Likewise, I don't have to go into the 'mega fast food chains'. For me at least, it's so much nicer to cook burgers at home. Even basic cookery skills can go a long way.
I still have some reliance on big business, but there are steps I can take to minimize cooperate influence on my life. I could walk more or go to the market in my town, for example; and buy local produce and help farmers get a better deal. And I can eat seasonably too. If we care about our planet we can all make changes to our lives.
Let's no go into New World Order. That sounds like crazy land. All I'm saying is we need to be more conscious of the world around us.
About fast food, yes a homemade diet is always the way to go.
My reliance on big businesses is a certainty since I'm just starting my life. Above all, the Middle East has became dependent on big corporations in a scary way, some areas are heavier than the others; I happened to be on of the heaviest. You're lucky.
If we care, caring would indeed touch our lives too.
The NWO is not a tinfoil theory. It's the new world of corporation control & elite businessmen domination. Ones like the gun contractors who stir wars to sell more arms, who manipulate number causing ups & downs in the stock market. It's not that much of crazy land to me at least. But the people who took that word to include aliens & reptile obama are the reason behind the bad name..
Although you are right that many accepted Sunni and Shia hadiths contradict the Quran, you have not brought any proof that we ought to not follow hadiths that don't contradict the Quran.
If you can say "people with different opinions", enemy is a big word. Though AF do indeed turns into a battlefield a lot, or more of a "minefield", but you know that's what humans should do be friends , as broad as the previous statement might appear, this can be enough to stop all our problems..Imagine the new horizons that might've sprung if all the enemies in one battlefield knew each other in a non-lethal ground.![[Image: above-photo-for-abraj-elbait.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.almrsal.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2Fabove-photo-for-abraj-elbait.jpg)
