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January 24, 2016 at 3:31 am (This post was last modified: January 24, 2016 at 3:57 am by snowtracks.)
(January 4, 2016 at 2:47 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: Nobody, not even the most evil of all persons ever to walk this earth deserves the punishment of the "eternal" horror beyond imagination which has been called Hell,
for there is no justice in subjecting one whose capacity for evil is limited by time, space, and ...er...imagination to an infinite fate (the same truth applies likewise to those of a limited capacity for good making a claim for infinite reward). Excepting, and only excepting the one who has used this idea to threaten others into compliance on anything, regardless of who he would create out of his own shit as a deflection target for his own egotistical whims!
When they hand you a tin star and pay you to enforce the law of the people, and you do that, then it is correctly said that you are the law. When you claim to do anything similar for a god, especially one of such magnitudinous power and ego as Yahweh is described by those who claim to "personally know" this fantastical (and horrific) person, then you also make the claim that you are that god. How could you not be assuming that role, regardless of the title you choose to whitewash it with, when this said god never, ever gets anything done in our world without the assholes who call themselves "followers" who supposedly act on his behalf? Therefore, when you claim to act in your god's name, you deserve to be treated like anyone who claims to be God himself. It should also be kept in mind just how angry, violent, capricious, bigoted, misogynistic, and cruel that god (that's you, Believer) happens to be. Did I mention crazy? Nobody can do more grave harm, and nobody is more evil and treacherous in his heart than the evangelist who has declared himself "on a mission from God"!
The Biblical doctrine of Hell is a paradox which is an apparent contradiction but upon further examination is resolvable. The issue here is God’s goodness and humans exercising their God given free-will to chose and once having chosen could be eternally ‘tormented’ for making a particular choice. Some points: 1) Lake-of-Fire and Hell synonyms describe a location; the word ‘fire’ in reference is non-consuming. 2) The word ‘torment’ describes a condition that is self-imposed (God will never violate His nature; His nature is incapable of ‘torment’) --- yes, there are things God can’t do.
The Bible makes it clear that the new creation & hell exist beyond, not within the dimensions of the universe, Both places will survive God’s ‘rolling up’ this universe; as one rolls up a scroll, and causing it to disappear in a fiery heat before replacing with the ‘New Creation’ (new to us), consisting of something completely new as to dimensions, physical & spiritual characteristics. God’s purpose in creating the universe includes fulfillment of His plan to conquer evil once and for all, always. God’s main purpose for creation is always linked to redemption.
The New Creation & the Lake-of-Fire are not the only created entities that will remain beyond this dramatic end. Every human who has ever lived & every angelic being also will survive (apparently one of the spiritual laws describing God’ reality is that every spirit creature once created exist unendingly. And no, the Neanderthals are not spirit beings … don’t get all goofy just because a hominid has bi-pedal locomotion.
The ‘torment’ results from a person determining from an absolutely, positively, pure 100% un-adultery freewill that they don’t want to be ’redeemed’ (again what is the main thing?, yes it’s redemption). God gives people what they chose, and make no mistake about it, they know exactly what they are choosing which is independence from God, but that also brings 'torment'. Once there, degrees of 'torment' are felt by the amount of restraint a person will have ... the more evil, they have exhibited on earth, the more restrain hell's inhabitants will have. Those there are still God's spiritual creatures and he protects those there from the most evil one's by restraining them the most. The evil one, the antichrist, and the false prophet won't be moving at all.
Atheist Credo: A universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
January 24, 2016 at 3:38 am (This post was last modified: January 24, 2016 at 3:40 am by robvalue.)
I think you're over complicating it.
God decided that there should be Hell, which is probably the most evil concept most people could imagine. If you'd like to describe a more harmful and evil act anyone could ever do than to create a place specifically for unending suffering, I'd be interested. Especially since he is more aware than anyone just how much suffering he is creating. He has no excuses, especially if he's meant to be the standard of good. He can just snuff people out after death if he doesn't want them in his club.
Hell has nothing to do with redemption or anything like that, since once you're in you can't get out. It is god's revenge and serves no other purpose than showing how evil he is and how much he will hurt you, to scare you into obedience.
Back in reality however, you die and then that's very likely it. Every second spent worrying about hell is a waste. You may as well worry that you'll become a goblin after death and you'll have to listen to really high pitched music 23 hours a day.
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(January 24, 2016 at 3:38 am)robvalue Wrote: I think you're over complicating it.
God decided that there should be Hell, which is probably the most evil concept most people could imagine. If you'd like to describe a more harmful and evil act anyone could ever do than to create a place specifically for unending suffering, I'd be interested. Especially since he is more aware than anyone just how much suffering he is creating. He has no excuses, especially if he's meant to be the standard of good. He can just snuff people out after death if he doesn't want them in his club.
Hell has nothing to do with redemption or anything like that, since once you're in you can't get out. It is god's revenge and serves no other purpose than showing how evil he is and how much he will hurt you, to scare you into obedience.
Back in reality however, you die and then that's very likely it. Every second spent worrying about hell is a waste. You may as well worry that you'll become a goblin after death and you'll have to listen to really high pitched music 23 hours a day.
According to the fairy tales everyone will get out of the biblical hell on Judgment Day. Some can then get into the golden cube. Everyone else will be tossed into the lake of fire but they won't go back to hell. Compared to the lake of fire hell isn't that bad.
In the Islamic fairy tale you can land in hell after Judgment Day. Islamic hell makes the lake of fire look very nice. Stay out of the Islamic hell.
Based on countless comments about hell it seems that people are actually thinking about the Islamic hell when they discuss hell. It seems that there's been a substantial transfer of beliefs about hell among the various religions.
(January 2, 2016 at 4:07 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Fuck the Bible, I want to know what Dr. Seuss has to say about Mordor.
I will carry this to mount of doom.
And throw its where its hot
Despite the dangers blocking me.
and itchy fungal rot.
I'll lug this ring.
Through forests wide and vast and empty plains.
Through deserts, rivers cold expanse while suffering chill blains.
I'll carry this my faithful friend until I reach my goal.
And cast it to the pit below in hopes it saves my soul.
Forgive me for not having read all 71 pages of this thread, so this question may have already been raised.
Does the Bible actually teach permanent torture in Hell?
Most of the usual quotes go elsewhere. The story of Lazarus and Dives is an adaptation of a well known Egyptian story (with a very meaningful twist at the end). As such, it's no more of a guide to the afterlife than the Pied Piper of Hamelin is to pest removal methods. Stories of weeping at being cast out refer to an in-this-life missing of the our-world Kingdom of God. Things said in Revelation belong to a genre known as Jewish Apocalyptic writing, and as such aren't close to being literal.
Given that Judaism didn't (?doesn't) really do 'Torture Hell', Jesus would have to be introducing a new idea into Judaism without unpacking it at all- and that's emphatically not how he did things.
(January 24, 2016 at 12:29 pm)Vicki Q Wrote: Forgive me for not having read all 71 pages of this thread, so this question may have already been raised.
Does the Bible actually teach permanent torture in Hell?
Most of the usual quotes go elsewhere. The story of Lazarus and Dives is an adaptation of a well known Egyptian story (with a very meaningful twist at the end). As such, it's no more of a guide to the afterlife than the Pied Piper of Hamelin is to pest removal methods. Stories of weeping at being cast out refer to an in-this-life missing of the our-world Kingdom of God. Things said in Revelation belong to a genre known as Jewish Apocalyptic writing, and as such aren't close to being literal.
Given that Judaism didn't (?doesn't) really do 'Torture Hell', Jesus would have to be introducing a new idea into Judaism without unpacking it at all- and that's emphatically not how he did things.
Jesus was a Pharisee. He believed in all kinds of stuff that Sadducee Jews didn't believe in.
I would estimate that most of the mythology surrounding the Christian hell has been invented/stolen and isn't bible based. It doesn't really matter what the bible says, it matters what you can force a young child to believe.
But there's still some nasty stuff in there about it.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
