The honest truth of it?

[Watson]

@ Welsh Cake: As I said before, belief is a prerequisite to understanding. I believe in God and make claims about His nature because I believe in Him, and have had time to grow in my understanding of Him. Your denial of Him does not allow you to understand Him.

You say that it is troubling that he is unknowable, and I am going to state right here and right now that I do not believe anything is 'knowable.' You may believe in something because you experienced it, but you do not know that what you experienced was real or even if it occured as you recall. For this, you require beleif.

@ Paul: I don't mean to come off as a jerk, but once again you show that you do not understand the concept of God, and you do not understand why I, or anyone else, believe what we believe. If you understand the concept of God, then explain it to me. If you understand what I said, then explain it to me in your terms. You say it sounds like I am trying to justify my beliefs, but yo ushow no supprot for this at all. Demonstrate to me where it sounds like this.

[Paul the Human]

I'm not going to get all into my personal understanding of the concept of god. I simply don't feel like typing that much. Heheh. Suffice it to say... I know exactly what you theists are claiming exists... and I don't buy it. As for 'justification'...

My world-view does not rely on invisible deities or miraculous occurences any more than yours does. First because God is not invisible, and secondd because my definition of 'miracle' is far different from yours. You want to wait for balls of fiery white light to erupt in the sky and begin speaking to you before you declare a miracle has occured. My criteria are far less stunning.

This sounds like justification to me. You claim that an almighty being is not invisible to you, because you know how to see it. Then you redefine the word ‘miracle’ to fit natural occurrences in order to reinforce the belief you wish to perpetuate.

I believe he exists, because my own experiences have subjectively and sufficiently proven to me, time and time again, that He exists.

This is an example of justification, as well. You have had experiences, have you? And these experiences haven proven to you that god is real? Wow! What would those be? Or are you worried that I would simply fail to see god in them?

As I've stated numerous times, in my own change from atheism to belief, I encountered situations which I recognized as not logically explainable through any means but belief in God.

Are you sure about that? Could it be that there are answers, but you are simply unaware of them? God of the Gaps? How is this not a justification?

You say that you are a true atheist, but I simpy do not believe there is such a thing. For that to be true, one would have to exist outside of the boundaries of God, and that is simply not possible. God is a part of all things, even atheists.

Wow. This is almost as absurd as saying, “it doesn’t matter if you believe in god… He believes in you!”

Again. I don’t expect you to agree. We believe different things. It’s almost as if we’re about to have a conversation we’ve already had at this point! Haha!

[Watson]

---

I'm not going to get all into my personal understanding of the concept of god. I simply don't feel like typing that much. Heheh. Suffice it to say... I know exactly what you theists are claiming exists... and I don't buy it.

Sounds kind of like a cop-out to me. You claim to know just what we are talking about, but by your very nature you clearly do not. At least from my POV. If you did, you wouldn't claim to be an atheist, plain and simple. It would help if you would elaborate...because right now, I'm not buying that you really understand what I, and many other theists, are talking about.

This sounds like justification to me. You claim that an almighty being is not invisible to you, because you know how to see it. Then you redefine the word ‘miracle’ to fit natural occurrences in order to reinforce the belief you wish to perpetuate.

I don't redefine the word miracle, I simply take issue with the preconceived definition as it stands from an atheist view-point. For example, I find it miraculous that life even exists on this planet. Out of the unfathomable amount of planets in the universe, out of the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of places life could have sprung up...it showed up here.

On top of that, the odds that a species sentient enough to perceive it and comprehend it as well as we do showing up are even more miniscule. We are literally, by definition, impossible. And yet here we are. As real as anything else and as smart as can be.

This is an example of justification, as well. You have had experiences, have you? And these experiences haven proven to you that god is real? Wow! What would those be? Or are you worried that I would simply fail to see god in them?

I am not worried that you would not see God in them, not one bit. On the contrary, I'm absolutely sure you wouldn't see God in them, because you do not believe in Him, and thus, you do not understand how to recognize Him. I have attempted to explain some of them on this forum before, and been met with swift rebuking.

Are you sure about that? Could it be that there are answers, but you are simply unaware of them? God of the Gaps? How is this not a justification?

This is not the God of the Gaps principle at work, I assure you. There are, in fact, perfectly natural reasons and explanations for how these events occured in my life- what is never answered, however, is why these events occured the way they did.

Wow. This is almost as absurd as saying, “it doesn’t matter if you believe in god… He believes in you!”

Actually, He doesn't believe in you. And that's not a good thing. But obviously, I don't expect you to agree with me, either. XD

Again. I don’t expect you to agree. We believe different things. It’s almost as if we’re about to have a conversation we’ve already had at this point! Haha!

We essentially are! haha This could go on for some times, but I am trying to demonstrate a point, as well as get a message across. That message is that our ways of thinking are not so far apart. Our trains of thought are close to the same track, but your's happens to be going in the wrong direction, from my POV. That is, backwards. Backwards is most definitely not good.

Another thing I am trying to say with this topic is that I came here for two reasons. One was to understand more about atheism outside of my own experiences, and to learn about how it affects the mind and soul. And two was to answer questions and explain my beliefs to those who were very clearly seeking answers regarding this issue. I just want you to think about something regarding this issue, Paul. Who really has support in his understanding of the universe here? The one who believes that the universe exists, or the one who must have it proven to him first?

---

[Dotard]

[rant]

Bullocks Watson. All that bullshit your spouting is bullocks. You have to believe before you can believe. You can't be an atheist and no one can because God is in everything. You don't understand the concept of God. Blah blah blah blah.

We understand the 'concept' of God just fine. A large percentage of us were dyed in the wool believing christains before we reconized the the 'gold' was just a painted piece of crap. JUST LIKE most of us believed in Santa Claus before growing up. So your contentions are a load of horseshit stating we have to believe it to truely believe it. WE DID BELIEVE IT and it still showed itself to be nothing but another myth in the large pile of myths we call religion.

The honesty is appreciated, yet as honest as you think you are being does not change the fact the existance of a supreme creator personal God is highly unlikely given the evidence for and the far greater lack of evidence.

You can put on your dancing shoes and tap dance around talking of "just believe it and you'll believe it" and how about this God of yours is so unknowable, untestable, outside our understanding, beyond or comprehension, yet you seem to know a fucking lot about him, but that gets us nowhere in any discussion of the existance of your super-ghost daddy.

Allow me to insert a little reminder here;

Most of us have been there, done that and found there was no T-shirt.

It is my personal contention a majority of you deists keep yourselves shackled to your silly superstitions out of fear. Plain ol' "I'm so scared of an eternal torturing I have to believe this bullshit".

I get red-in-the-ears upset when I see parents/grownups telling a little child, who is complaining about the monsters under their bed are gonna get them, 'Just say "I rebuke thee in the name of the Lord"" or "Just pray to God to protect you". Thus re-enforcing the belief that there really are monsters under there! Then those children grow up to be another Watson. All they can say is "I know God is." "I know God is real." They can't give you any logical coherent reasons about why they believe, it's all ancedotal and a 'just know'ing.

Take a guess at why it is that little God/Monsters/Satans/Ghosts/Demons/orwhateverthefuckyouchooseisreal thought is ingrained in your brain. My contention would be your childhood (or childadult, the bible does say you have to have the mind of a child to believe this shit) brainwashing hasn't purged itself by whatever process occured that had it purge itself in the rest of us childhood deists/grown-up atheists.

Paul's post read as if it's all sunshine, butterfies and bluebirds on your shoulder over here in the atheist camp. True is, it is, or can be, a scary place. Dead. Wow, that's it. Nothing after. Absolute. No 'watcher'. No 'Protector'. You will not see that dead child waiting for you in heaven. Scary depressing shtuff Maynard.

So you folks convince yourselves every little stroke of luck or good fortune is God performing miracles. Just for you. God bending the physical observations (laws)of physics and the universe, just for you. It gives justification to yourself to believe that nagging little 'voice' in your head telling you "There really are monsters under there".

[/rant]


If you go look for yourself, and consistantly see there are no monsters under your bed, you will stop believing in them being there. You will be unable to help it. It will be a natural consequence of that action.


If you do not go look, and choose just to 'pray them away' or ask Gods to protect you or tell your babies Jesus is there to protect them from the evil, you will never stop believing mythology is reality.

[Watson]

That rant was very irrelevant, LOL

First off, I find my position very logical. I do not just spout off "God just is" and "God is real because God is real" arguments like you seem to think I do. I wouldn't have made it this far on an atheist forum if all I did was talk out my ass.

Second, what the fuck do you mean "beleive to believe"? Where in the fuck did I say that, Dotard? Show me, right now, where I said that. I didn't, I said you have to believe to understand. I'm highly aware that a lot of atheists were once religious in some form or another. Guess what? It has no baring on anything if you didn't understand your time as a believer. Just like it has no baring if I didn't understand my time as a non-believer.

But I can say quite confidently that I did, in fact, understand it and still do. Hindsight is 20/20

Third, I am not afraid of Hell, I am not afraid of eternal torture. I have experienced Hell and it is not a pleasant state of mind by any means, but I am fortunate enough to have realized where I was headed, and changed directions. Trust me, there's nothing like either feeling.

Fourth, you must have missed the post where I explained that the reason I make claims about God is because I believe in Him. Belief is a prerequisite for understanding, and due to my belief, I am better able to understand and explain to others the nature of God and how He works. I do not 'know' anything about God. If I find something that conflicts with my current understanding of God, I will have to change my understanding.

Take a look at that rant of yours, Dotard, and read it aloud to yourself. Talk about it with someone who agrees with you in real life, and someone who disagrees with you. I'm not here to show you how ridiculous you sound, and i have no patience for idiots. Kindly take your bitch-fit and GTFO.

EDIT:
Further points I would like to make are these: I am no desit, so please don't confuse me for one.

Also, you claim that my points get us nowhere in a discussion, but the truth is they do. I am trying to demonstrate to you that you do not understand 'God' or the concept of 'God' as well as you think you do, and then to move on and explain Him to you as well as I, personally, am able.

[Godscreated]

Belief is the prerequisite for understanding, but it does not automatically instill this understanding in someone. Look at fundamentalists. They believe, but they do not understand what it is they are believing in.

Watson I agree with many of your statements but as for a fundamentalist not knowing what he believes in I whole heartedly disagree. I am and will always be a fundie and I do know whom I believe in. There is only one God and He's the creator of the universe, He is all that is good and God alone is good. You can not deny my experiences with the living God just because I believe that the entire Bible is true and those experiences are what defines my relationship with God they give me insight into who He is and why we exist and our purpose in existing. God is my life for without Him I would have no meaningful life I know because I was at that place once and I'll never return there. God through Jesus Christ has given me life forever and ever.

Paul I asked you in another discussion if when you did believe if you ever were active in Gods work. I asked you if you ever tried to have a real relationship with God that is one in which you tried to get to know Him. The reason I ask this is when you made statements about being a believer it seemed to me you were just going through the motions that you were never serious about having a personal relationship with God that you were afraid of experiencing God. Was it that you were afraid He might want something from you. When you experience God you will never disbelieve period. There is a great difference in believeing in God and experiencing Him!

[Minimalist]

if when you did believe if you ever were active in Gods work.

There is no god's work...there are only pretentious men who strive to think themselves more important than they are.

[tackattack]

I'll agree with Paul on this one, which is agreeing with Watson on his earlier points except paul being an atheism. Specifically, I would add that my world view isn't based off of the Bible and invisible pink unicorns because my world view is based in the now. I may have a "checks and balance" for my ego and morality, but personal responsibility/ accountability and "cause and effect" are central to my world-view. I would also add that experience a prerequisite for definition which is a prerequisite for proof which is a prerequisite for belief.

@God's child- I think a key problem with the stance of "God is my life for without Him I would have no meaningful life " Is that meaning is derived from self and a lot of people do find meaning in life without God. I think if a lot of fundies accepted this, they'd push away a lot less "unbelievers" and shrink the division. Even God speaks about not scausing dissent.

[Loki_999]

If ever I meet a true atheist, I will stop believing on the spot.

Hello! I'm a true atheist. I welcome you to the club as a new member. Sorry there are no free gifts upon joining, not even a badge. We don't promise salvation or an eternal life. The only thing we can offer you is for you to live your life how you choose. Enjoy!

[Caecilian]

If ever I meet a true atheist, I will stop believing on the spot.

Hello! I'm a true atheist. I welcome you to the club as a new member. Sorry there are no free gifts upon joining, not even a badge. We don't promise salvation or an eternal life. The only thing we can offer you is for you to live your life how you choose. Enjoy!

Yeah, I'm a true atheist too. Nice that Watson is joining us in our unbelief.

It really pisses me off when theists say that we atheists really do believe in god, and just won't admit it, or similar crap. Pure tiny-minded arrogance.