Suicide

[Catholic_Lady]

I can't say whether or not I would believe life is sacred if I was atheist. That's a good question though.

[Joods]

My take on the issue of suicide is that I personally feel it is wrong for anyone to assume it is a selfish act. If someone is hurting that much, that they feel they can no longer stand the cause of their pain, that no one truly cares or loves them, that for THEM, the only logical way to end such pain is to end their life, then there isn't a thing, person or ideal that will convince them otherwise. If all of their cries for help have gone ignored and they truly feel they are suffering inside, what ever is internally tormenting them, must end and they are not being selfish, but looking for a way to end their suffering. If there is question about who gets left behind and hurt by those actions, then perhaps those individuals should be paying attention to the signs before hand and take the situation seriously, but the suicidal person IS crying out for help and they are feeling ignored.

When life gets to that point, it takes a ton of work to help the person. It takes a lot of patience and love and understanding and sometimes all of those things just might not be enough. It is a horrible thing to have to experience when someone you love does this, but not at any time should it ever be considered selfish.

I don't believe anyone said that it was, I haven't read all the comments, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter.

[robvalue]

I agree. I would only call it selfish if someone had decided beforehand they were going to do it, and then deliberately manufactured more suffering.

As a ridiculous example, say I decide I'm going to kill myself in exactly one year's time, no matter what happens. It would then be selfish of me to start a new long term relationship or get someone pregnant without telling them what my plans are.

The psychological pain someone can be in can be so extreme, that expecting them to continue in that state indefinitely for my benefit would actually be selfish of me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think there is an element of selfishness involved insofar as the suicider, upon enacting his decision, has decided that the effects his act might have on others is less important than his his own feelings at the moment.

He might be right, he might be wrong, and I won't cast aspersions in either case. But I do think there is a selfish element to suicidal thinking. At least there was in my case, when the two times I gave it serious consideration arose.

[bennyboy]

My take on the issue of suicide is that I personally feel it is wrong for anyone to assume it is a selfish act. If someone is hurting that much, that they feel they can no longer stand the cause of their pain, that no one truly cares or loves them, that  for THEM, the only logical way to end such pain is to end their life, then there isn't a thing, person or ideal that will convince them otherwise. If all of their cries for help have gone ignored and they truly feel they are suffering inside, what ever is internally tormenting them, must end and they are not being selfish, but looking for a way to end their suffering. If there is question about who gets left behind and hurt by those actions, then perhaps those individuals should be paying attention to the signs before hand and take the situation seriously, but the suicidal person IS crying out for help and they are feeling ignored.

When life gets to that point, it takes a ton of work to help the person. It takes a lot of patience and love and understanding and sometimes all of those things just might not be enough. It is a horrible thing to have to experience when someone you love does this, but not at any time should it ever be considered selfish.

I don't believe anyone said that it was, I haven't read all the comments, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter.

I appreciate your sensitivity, and it really is an issue that requires it.  However, I'd say that almost all immoral acts are rooted in human weakness.  What if I say I'm in psychological pain and the only way I can solve it is to have sex with my secretary?  Should my wife understand when I cave into the psychological pressure?  What if I'm a tortured soul, and so I beat other people up?  Can I say, "Those people shouldn't have ignored the signs that I was becoming enraged"?

It is definitely selfish to act for one's own hardship despite knowing it will cause hardship for others.  The essence of moral behavior is. . . don't do that.

That doesn't mean that the suicidal person can control her behavior, or was a bad person.  But clearly, acting to cause suffering in others is immoral, whether one is in a mind to see that or not.

[Joods]

I don't believe that a person who is suicidal intentionally sets out to cause others harm. The person is in so much pain and feels desperate to find a way to end that pain. Life becomes so unbearable that all other forms of relief are no longer an option. They just want relief at that moment.

[Longhorn]

I don't believe that a person who is suicidal intentionally sets out to cause others harm. The person is in so much pain and feels desperate to find a way to end that pain. Life becomes so unbearable that all other forms of relief are no longer an option. They just want relief at that moment.

This, exactly.

Someone who is in enough pain to contemplate taking their own life just is not in the mental condition that would allow them to even consider the impact of their actions. That's to do with rationality, and someone overwhelmed with pain and emotions is hardly capable of thinking about it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't believe that a person who is suicidal intentionally sets out to cause others harm. The person is in so much pain and feels desperate to find a way to end that pain. Life becomes so unbearable that all other forms of relief are no longer an option. They just want relief at that moment.

This, exactly.

Someone who is in enough pain to contemplate taking their own life just is not in the mental condition that would allow them to even consider the impact of their actions. That's to do with rationality,  and someone overwhelmed with pain and emotions is hardly capable of thinking about it.

But as Benny points out, and rightly, in my opinion, the fact that one cannot see the moral dimensions of one's act doesn't not mean it isn't there.

[Sappho]

I would much rather like to talk about wether one should commit suicide in the first place, without looking at that persons mental situation, but looking at the act itself.

I'm going to approach this with the ideas of a great thinker called Albert Camus, in which line of thought I place myself. I will try to explain in my best English.

We have all asked many question about life, our existence, time, ... they all remain unanswerd by the universe, regardless of how much we try or struggle. This, us having questions without the universe answering, we call 'the absurd'. It can be seen trough the endless same boring days, death, things happening seemingly without any reason, questioning your purpose and existence,... Someone who has encountered it and cannot find a solution, society usually labels 'being in an existenial crisis' or 'depressed'. Once a person has stumbled on it he has multiple option of what he can do.
(The things between brackets has no extra value to what I want to say, but they rather complete the big picture so it's easier to understand.)
(1: He returns to his old life, trying to forget all what he has seen and just keep on moving.
2: He lies the answers beyond his life. They wait in his eternal life after death possesed by an almighty creature.)
3: He concludes he will never get answers, knowing his life has neither a given purpose nor meaning. Thus he finds no reason why to exist and commits suicide.
(4: He becomes an absurd hero, as he accepts the absurd, himself giving his life a purpose so that he can make the world a little less absurd, although knowing he cannot succeed and his effort is meaningless. This is quite difficult to explain, so I'll stop here and if you want to know more I suggest you read: The Myth of Sysiphos: And essay about the absurd - Albert Camus. )
As you see, once he discovers his whole life has been 'a lie' with no meaning and no given purpose, he flees instead of embracing it and giving it its own meaning and purpose, accepting the absurdity of it all, that life is a joke and you can die any moment without having had any impact on the universe since it thrives without direction nor destination. Why would you quit? Why not play on the beach called the universe building sandcastles? As a child you know it will be washed away and nodody will ever know there ever was a sandcastle, no matter how majestic and big, but still you made one and you had damn much fun doing so.

To conclude there is nothing against suicide but it would be the least fun option of them all.
This all to say what you all already knew. Although I find it a good thing to tell people when they start dragging about how they see no point in their lives and cry about being here.
I hope I didn't write some too weird things, my mind isn't very clear atm.

[Joods]

This, exactly.

Someone who is in enough pain to contemplate taking their own life just is not in the mental condition that would allow them to even consider the impact of their actions. That's to do with rationality,  and someone overwhelmed with pain and emotions is hardly capable of thinking about it.

But as Benny points out, and rightly, in my opinion, the fact that one cannot see the moral dimensions of one's act doesn't not mean it isn't there.

Maybe so, but you'll never convince a suicidal person of any of that. They are not thinking about that. They are thinking about ending THEIR pain and THEIR suffering in THAT moment. Unless you've walked that walk, it's a hard concept to grasp.