Suicide

[bennyboy]

Quite frankly, I think premeditation is irrelevant.  It's whether or not the person can understand the consequences of thier actions that counts.  One can premeditate their death but still not be able to understand the consequences of taking their life.

I agree with this.  I also believe premeditation is irrelevant, since a brain addled by torment is premeditating on a bad world view.  An obvious example would be that of a severe schizophrenic, who plans for months to shoot up a school, because his dog, who he thinks is God, tells him to.  His premeditation is not the issue-- it is that his brain isn't thinking right.

I think the same thing goes for knowledge of consequences, and for the same reason: someone with a twisted world view may not be able to make sensible value judgments.  A suicidal person definitely is aware that he will cease to exist, and knows that others will know about this death-- so there is knowledge of consequences.  However, because of the confusion caused by his torment, his own current suffering seems infinite, and that of others is rated so low that it is less and less relevant to his behavior as he gets closer to his final decision and the act that goes with it.  So it's more an inability to care about the consequences than a cognitive inability to understand what they are.

Now, let's take a sociopath, who has no capacity for understanding or caring about the feelings of others. Is his serial killing also morally neutral? He knows people will say they are hurt by him-- however, he has no capacity to make value judgments based on those words. Again, the IDEA of consequence is there, but the ability to care about the consequences is completely lacking.

[DespondentFishdeathMasochismo]

I've been pondering over the idea, I started by thinking over whether or not I had justifiable reason to do so. This lead me to question what counted as a justifiable reason. I've been trying to think of a philosophical argument for suicide. No, I am not planning to do something irreversible. 

The only idea of any substance is this, which I will pose as a question. 

Could it be considered a moral action to 'opt out'? That is, could it be said that refusing to be a part of this species is a moral action?

Idk I think it all comes down to outlook on life. Anyone can come up with trillions of reasons why or why not to. It's all a matter of perspective and I think that suicidal people should always be talked out of it, because life is the utmost valuable thing in the world.

[DespondentFishdeathMasochismo]

Was watching an interesting documentary on the Economist about assisted suicide in Belgium, yesterday. It was called "25 and ready to die". It was a documentary narrated by the actual person planning the assisted suicide. It showed her going through the procedures of the doctor evaluation, the woman's mom answered questions directly on camera, it showed the girl sitting in the park with her friends struggling with the idea of what to say at the funeral, the girl gave testimony about her own impossible battle with depression.

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What was amazing though, is that at the end of the documentary, she actually said the procedure and being close to death actually made her okay, and gave her a feeling of respite and she didn't go through with it. She called it off a day before the procedure, in which she was allowed to back out at any time

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. What was funny though, is I was actually feeling for this girl. It was heartbreaking to me to see that she just didn't want to live her life anymore, because of her long battle with depression.

I think on the topic of suicide though. To say that suicide is immoral, is a repugnant disrespect to what the person went through. If they're already dead, to say that they killed themselves is immoral, is to basically piss on the graves of the dead. At that point in their lives, whatever reasoning leading up to the moment they died is gone. They're dead and all you have is the memory of theirs which you can respect, or disrespect. In the end, it really just comes down to whether or not you liked the person. I doubt many people really like Adolf Hitler enough to say that it was a shame he took his own life. Robin Williams though, he's someone most people would defend. Just a brilliant and loving actor who touched the hearts of millions, battling with depression that no one knew of. How about, there's meaning beyond the petty "morals" you arbitrate over another human being. Even Adolf Hitler was a guy who operated off of some basic, unidentifiable, yet neutral fundamental physical laws that we all obey. We are literally no better.

[Minimalist]

I believe suicide is immoral.

It's cultural.  Japanese kamikaze pilots were not considered immoral.  British captains who went down with their ship were not considered immoral.  Roman generals who killed themselves after a defeat were not considered immoral.  Muslim suicide bombers are not considered immoral.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I've been pondering over the idea, I started by thinking over whether or not I had justifiable reason to do so. This lead me to question what counted as a justifiable reason. I've been trying to think of a philosophical argument for suicide. No, I am not planning to do something irreversible. 

The only idea of any substance is this, which I will pose as a question. 

Could it be considered a moral action to 'opt out'? That is, could it be said that refusing to be a part of this species is a moral action?

Saul killed himself with a sword in his gut.  Worked great.  His body guard did the same thing.  
1 Samuel 31:4-5 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...JV;MEV;TLB

[Edwardo Piet]

I believe suicide is immoral.

Aside from Catholic doctrine, do you have a reason for this belief?

It's immoral if people will miss you.

[Dystopia]

I believe suicide is morally neutral - And I believe it is immoral to request someone who is going trough unbearable pain and suffering that they cannot end their lives because it is selfish.

I've met people who attempted suicide. It's not pretty. But such is life. There's lots of horrible things happening to people daily, everywhere around the world - People getting emotionally and physically abused, living in poverty, being harassed and coerced into doing things they didn't want to do, unemployed, heartbroken - I cannot possibly come up to someone who is in pain and tell them that they cannot end their life. It would be great if no one had to kill themselves, and I think we should try to build a society where people feel comfortable or at least neutral and have less reasons to commit suicide - But that is not the world we live in.

[Joods]

Aside from Catholic doctrine, do you have a reason for this belief?

It's immoral if people will miss you.

Aha! However, if someone dies in any other manner besides suicide, that person is going to be missed by people. Either way, when a person dies, they are missed by people. So one could come to the conclusion that ALL death is immoral. (I'm playing devil's advocate here to show a point)

[GrandizerII]

Their body, their life. They get to choose when to end it, no one else.

[Edwardo Piet]

Aha! However, if someone dies in any other manner besides suicide, that person is going to be missed by people. Either way, when a person dies, they are missed by people. So one could come to the conclusion that ALL death is immoral. (I'm playing devil's advocate here to show a point)

Well from a consquentialist perspective, all other things being equal: When people are missed after they die, that causes suffering.

Trouble is, all things are never equal.

But, indeed, that is not exclusive to suicide.

Still, I'm glad that my attempt failed. I don't believe I was being immoral at all in any other sense besides the consequentialist one. Because, I was far too unwell to even think straight. And my self-esteem was so skewed that I genuinely believed that no one loved me and no one would ever miss me.