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Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
#21
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 29, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Jenny A Wrote:
(December 28, 2015 at 7:40 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Because we're conditioned to believe that unless we are pretty, pleasant, and not too smart, people will like us and approve of us. If we show too much intellect, we're made fun of and called dyke or geek or otherwise unattractive. It starts at a very early age. Little girls get dolls, little boys get cars and trucks.

I'm curious, is your father a STEM boy?  And do you have brothers?  The women I know who were most STEM encouraged in my generation had STEM fathers and no brothers, making them a sort of pseud Daddy's son.

Nope, my Dad wasn't in any STEM field and I have a brother. I wasn't discouraged, though, and ended up in a STEM career.
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
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#22
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 29, 2015 at 9:24 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote:
(December 29, 2015 at 9:16 pm)Mermaid Wrote: That is a hell of a chip on your shoulder there. It's interesting to me that you speak to me so strongly about my experiences growing up female. If you want actual discourse on this, fine. But I don't really care to talk to someone who is so knee-jerk hostile about it. Sheesh. I am hardly "regurgitating mindless myths". Why so defensive about it?

As background, I have an advanced degree and a 25 year career in biological science.

An example from my own personal experience: When I was ready to go to college, more than one person (one of them a mother of two girls) told me that I was wasting my time and taking away a spot that a man should have, because I would end up married with kids and not working anyway.

Before your feathers get ruffled, I acknowledge and understand that men are subject to other, equally anguishing societal pressures.

Yeah, well, those people are genuine morons, apparently. I don't think civilised people will say stuff like that, and you shouldn't care about what people say anyway. Have any of your colleagues told you something like that? Any professors of yours? That would be a problem, not some half-baked opinions of jealous individuals who don't have any skills themselves.

It is a cultural problem, not just random idiots. Maybe giving my own examples for the sake of supporting that was a mistake. Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that our cultural mores encourage boys more than girls in certain fields? I am happy to say things have sure changed since I was a kid, but it still exists. Strong women are not well received culturally. Look at Hillary Clinton.
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
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#23
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 29, 2015 at 10:29 pm)Mermaid Wrote:
(December 29, 2015 at 9:24 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: Yeah, well, those people are genuine morons, apparently. I don't think civilised people will say stuff like that, and you shouldn't care about what people say anyway. Have any of your colleagues told you something like that? Any professors of yours? That would be a problem, not some half-baked opinions of jealous individuals who don't have any skills themselves.

It is a cultural problem, not just random idiots. Maybe giving my own examples for the sake of supporting that was a mistake. Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that our cultural mores encourage boys more than girls in certain fields? I am happy to say things have sure changed since I was a kid, but it still exists. Strong women are not well received culturally. Look at Hillary Clinton.
I can only speak for myself, ultimately. I haven't studied the problem. Maybe I'm biased because of my own views. But some things are simply untrue as a matter of fact, and yet much repeated over the internet.
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#24
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 29, 2015 at 10:48 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote:
(December 29, 2015 at 10:29 pm)Mermaid Wrote: It is a cultural problem, not just random idiots. Maybe giving my own examples for the sake of supporting that was a mistake. Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that our cultural mores encourage boys more than girls in certain fields? I am happy to say things have sure changed since I was a kid, but it still exists. Strong women are not well received culturally. Look at Hillary Clinton.
I can only speak for myself, ultimately. I haven't studied the problem. Maybe I'm biased because of my own views. But some things are simply untrue as a matter of fact, and yet much repeated over the internet.
And some things are true based on personal experience and observation.
Everyone is biased because of their own views. The trick is to avoid getting defensive and listen to people talking about their own experiences.
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
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#25
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
Dilbert has the answer, as usual.

[Image: imageProxy2?img=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.amun...5056a9545d]
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#26
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
Wally was always my favorite Dilbert character.

[Image: 8cd386c09fad012f2fe600163e41dd5b]
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#27
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 30, 2015 at 11:30 am)Mermaid Wrote:
(December 29, 2015 at 10:48 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: I can only speak for myself, ultimately. I haven't studied the problem. Maybe I'm biased because of my own views. But some things are simply untrue as a matter of fact, and yet much repeated over the internet.
And some things are true based on personal experience and observation.
Everyone is biased because of their own views. The trick is to avoid getting defensive and listen to people talking about their own experiences.

I never said anything about your own experience.
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#28
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 30, 2015 at 2:57 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote:
(December 30, 2015 at 11:30 am)Mermaid Wrote: And some things are true based on personal experience and observation.
Everyone is biased because of their own views. The trick is to avoid getting defensive and listen to people talking about their own experiences.

I never said anything about your own experience.

Didn't say you did. Your assertion that it's all bullshit is what I am addressing. Your assertion that girls and boys are not presented with different pressures and opportunities with regard to career and social issues.
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
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#29
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 30, 2015 at 3:00 pm)Mermaid Wrote:
(December 30, 2015 at 2:57 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: I never said anything about your own experience.

Didn't say you did. Your assertion that it's all bullshit is what I am addressing. Your assertion that girls and boys are not presented with different pressures and opportunities with regard to career and social issues.

In the civilised world, I do think it's bullshit. I don't even live in that much of a civilised country, by european standarts, and yet my experience says otherwise. That's why we don't rely on personal experience to derive conclusions, but on facts. You should know that, as a scientist. I shouldn't be the one to dispel myths you hold about this thing. Bring me some solid data as to how women are treated worse than men and then we'll talk about it. Until then, you're merely asking for some sort of pity.
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#30
RE: Why are there significantly less women in S.T.E.M fields, what we can do to help
(December 30, 2015 at 3:09 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote:
(December 30, 2015 at 3:00 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Didn't say you did. Your assertion that it's all bullshit is what I am addressing. Your assertion that girls and boys are not presented with different pressures and opportunities with regard to career and social issues.

In the civilised world, I do think it's bullshit. I don't even live in that much of a civilised country, by european standarts, and yet my experience says otherwise. That's why we don't rely on personal experience to derive conclusions, but on facts. You should know that, as a scientist. I shouldn't be the one to dispel myths you hold about this thing. Bring me some solid data as to how women are treated worse than men and then we'll talk about it. Until then, you're merely asking for some sort of pity.

I am asking for pity? Whut? Where did I claim women are treated worse than men? Did you read anything that I wrote at all?
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
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