Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge

[Mystic]

I am of the position nowadays that debating with theists is futile because they believe for emotional reasons.

It might be possible to demonstrate to someone exactly that. For someone who cares about truth, that would be a revelation of sorts.

I would say emotion is definitely a deciding factor, and for some it's the main reason, but people have reasons. For example, I think a Christian goes through an experience like this:

They believe in God to justified reasons.
They conclude for some reasons God would guide humanity and communicate with them.
They then look at religions and see there revelation or religion taught by Jesus as the best out there and find it the most beautiful way for God to act.
Therefore it makes sense for them to believe.

Now each of these steps needs reasoning. What motivates them to conclude is true is love. However I would say love of people/family tradition is mixed into this. 

So people will seek to justify their religion is more beautiful then others. Their philosophy is more profound. 

Atheists tend to assume it's all one reason for the whole package. They are different. 

I was considering becoming a new age type theist who believes in spiritual guides without a divine book or outward organized religion while a Deist.

But I have reasons. I really want to share those reasons here and discuss them objectively, but, I realize there is no use if we can't get to past step 1. I wanted to discuss Islam with assuming 1 is true and just leaving it for the sake of discussion.

That said I feel it's hard to get into a deep critical discussion with Theists about this.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

Many fundy and mental Christians teach that they should love all humanity, but in practice, we know what they really do. They "love" them by despising, and when they can, by killing those who won't go with the tribe. It wasn't an act of hatred to kill "witches" through the horrifying, agonizing, and disgusting act of burning them at the stake, no - this was a loving kindness, because the complete incineration of the body was believed to be the only way by which they could separate the "demons" which were possessing these poor souls, so that they would still have hope of going on to heaven without the evil spirits still clinging to them.

Hello, theists out there! Did you read the above? Such executions actually happened in history, and yes it was done under the oversight of holy leaders who applied that frightful logic. It's a fine example of what rhetoric can do to a society when it allows itself to be controlled by those who spout it in place of logic based on empirical factors, and it also points out how far from anything good one can go and still be able to support his actions with a holy book which is believed to be perfectly good.

Please understand that the misdirection and atrocities that resulted were because of manipulation by the ancient Roman Catholic church, and even before.

All things happen for a reason. I think those things in history are to be lessons, similar to what you are saying. The lesson isn't to abolish the freedom to practice religion freely, but that man is not God, and that hierarchy is flawed. Utter equality, equal value per human life, and a high general respect for all life is important.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

That is very wrong, Pops, and very irresponsible of you to point to another and go "only dey wudda dun dat!"

I'm not denying that the atrocities began with the Catholic church, but that church took the world first, it was that one which first grew too big for the rest of the world, therefore it's a pointless argument. Protestants were hardly blameless in their conflicts against "the papists", and they were no less bloody. It wasn't really that long ago that Puritans were slaughtering their own for "witchcraft". So don't think you can blame the problem of religious power on a different sect, because sectarian differences per se have nothing to do with the tendency toward the violence which happens. As it has happened so many times before, so it will again whenever and wherever any sect or ideological group becomes powerful enough that it can get away with eliminating the people who its people don't like. It doesn't matter what a group believes, they will invariably lose empathy for those who get in their way when they become for long enough accustomed to the privilege of their majority status. Their spiritual leaders (or their revolutionary leaders) will pander to their hatred where and when it will sell, giving them the "moral" solutions which they want. With moral vindication on their side, they will trample all over their scapegoats, they may even torture and butcher some again, and if they fail to crush them completely then they will rally from their ashes, gain followers and power, and finally commit similar horrors in retaliation.

The common denominator, whenever such a cycle of events has, does, and will occur is always large groups of people who allow others to manipulate their emotions and their decision-making processes, and this is invariably what goes on in church groups. Now I know you have expressed some disdain for organizations, but if you aren't meeting in groups as either a follower or an agitator, then you are probably in the precarious position of kow-towing to your own ego (which you would mistake as another person or god).

[popsthebuilder]

Please understand that the misdirection and atrocities that resulted were because of manipulation by the ancient Roman Catholic church, and even before.

All things happen for a reason. I think those things in history are to be lessons, similar to what you are saying. The lesson isn't to abolish the freedom to practice religion freely, but that man is not God, and that hierarchy is flawed. Utter equality, equal value per human life, and a high general respect for all life is important.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

That is very wrong, Pops, and very irresponsible of you to point to another and go "only dey wudda dun dat!"

I'm not denying that the atrocities began with the Catholic church, but that church took the world first, it was that one which first grew too big for the rest of the world, therefore it's a pointless argument. Protestants were hardly blameless in their conflicts against "the papists", and they were no less bloody. It wasn't really that long ago that Puritans were slaughtering their own for "witchcraft". So don't think you can blame the problem of religious power on a different sect, because sectarian differences per se have nothing to do with the tendency toward the violence which happens. As it has happened so many times before, so it will again whenever and wherever any sect or ideological group becomes powerful enough that it can get away with eliminating the people who its people don't like. It doesn't matter what a group believes, they will invariably lose empathy for those who get in their way when they become for long enough accustomed to the privilege of their majority status. Their spiritual leaders will pander to their hatred where and when it will sell, giving them the "moral" solutions which they want. With moral vindication on their side, they will trample all over their scapegoats, they may even torture and butcher some again, and if they fail to crush them completely then they will rally from their ashes, gain followers and power, and finally commit similar horrors in retaliation.

The common denominator, whenever such a cycle of events has, does, and will occur is always large groups of people who allow others to manipulate their emotions and their decision-making processes, and this is invariably what goes on in church groups. Now I know you have expressed some disdain for organizations, but if you aren't meeting in groups as either a follower or an agitator, then you are probably in the precarious position of kow-towing to your own ego (which you would mistake as another person or god).

I read the first paragraph. Maybe you're confused or something but the ancient Roman Catholic Church is responsible for all other sects and even partially responsible for Islam. Regardless of numerous attempts at varied times and levels, the Roman Catholic Church still managed to skew and lead most astray from true direction and faith in God.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

[Angrboda]

Regardless of numerous attempts at varied times and levels, the Roman Catholic Church still managed to skew and lead most astray from true direction and faith in God.

And so it begins.....

[popsthebuilder]

Regardless of numerous attempts at varied times and levels, the Roman Catholic Church still managed to skew and lead most astray from true direction and faith in God.

And so it begins.....

[SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

Is that supposed to depict the whore of Babylon?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

That is very wrong, Pops, and very irresponsible of you to point to another and go "only dey wudda dun dat!"

I'm not denying that the atrocities began with the Catholic church, but that church took the world first, it was that one which first grew too big for the rest of the world, therefore it's a pointless argument. Protestants were hardly blameless in their conflicts against "the papists", and they were no less bloody. It wasn't really that long ago that Puritans were slaughtering their own for "witchcraft". So don't think you can blame the problem of religious power on a different sect, because sectarian differences per se have nothing to do with the tendency toward the violence which happens. As it has happened so many times before, so it will again whenever and wherever any sect or ideological group becomes powerful enough that it can get away with eliminating the people who its people don't like. It doesn't matter what a group believes, they will invariably lose empathy for those who get in their way when they become for long enough accustomed to the privilege of their majority status. Their spiritual leaders will pander to their hatred where and when it will sell, giving them the "moral" solutions which they want. With moral vindication on their side, they will trample all over their scapegoats, they may even torture and butcher some again, and if they fail to crush them completely then they will rally from their ashes, gain followers and power, and finally commit similar horrors in retaliation.

The common denominator, whenever such a cycle of events has, does, and will occur is always large groups of people who allow others to manipulate their emotions and their decision-making processes, and this is invariably what goes on in church groups. Now I know you have expressed some disdain for organizations, but if you aren't meeting in groups as either a follower or an agitator, then you are probably in the precarious position of kow-towing to your own ego (which you would mistake as another person or god).

I read the first paragraph. Maybe you're confused or something but the ancient Roman Catholic Church is responsible for all other sects and even partially responsible for Islam. Regardless of numerous attempts at varied times and levels, the Roman Catholic Church still managed to skew and lead most astray from true direction and faith in God.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

No, Pops, you're confused, and that's being kind because for justice I should presume you are dodging the ball.

The Catholic church was original xtianity, no shit! Read on, it's about actual history and the nature of sectarian violence. Also, stop pretending only Catholics are responsible for extreme injustice, torture, and insanely senseless executions of the innocent!

[The Grand Nudger]

Mystic, you don't have reasons, you have rationalizations.  If you had reasons we'd have heard them by now.

[popsthebuilder]

I read the first paragraph. Maybe you're confused or something but the ancient Roman Catholic Church is responsible for all other sects and even partially responsible for Islam. Regardless of numerous attempts at varied times and levels, the Roman Catholic Church still managed to skew and lead most astray from true direction and faith in God.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

No, Pops, you're confused, and that's being kind because for justice I should presume you are dodging the ball.

The Catholic church was original xtianity, no shit! Read on, it's about actual history and the nature of sectarian violence. Also, stop pretending only Catholics are responsible for extreme injustice, torture, and insanely senseless executions of the innocent!

What ball am I dodging?


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

No, Pops, you're confused, and that's being kind because for justice I should presume you are dodging the ball.

The Catholic church was original xtianity, no shit! Read on, it's about actual history and the nature of sectarian violence. Also, stop pretending only Catholics are responsible for extreme injustice, torture, and insanely senseless executions of the innocent!

What ball am I dodging?


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

You completely dodged the ball by failing to respond to the point which I took the time to spell out for you. Your response was completely non-sequitor - Protestants are not blameless for their own actions just because they exist on account of historic Catholic abuses. The ball is in your court now.

Just fucking read what I posted, if you're going to respond at all!

[popsthebuilder]

What ball am I dodging?


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

You completely dodged the ball by failing to respond to the point which I took the time to spell out for you. Your response was completely non-sequitor - Protestants are not blameless for their own actions just because they exist on account of historic Catholic abuses. The ball is in your court now.

Just fucking read what I posted, if you're going to respond at all!

There is no fault in ignorance. As such those lead astray by others, disconnected from GOD, yet still with unwavering faith are blessed. I agree that all are responsible for the actions and even the things that happen to them in one way or another.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.